In today's episode, Tina Collins, is going to share her proven strategies for dealing with these workplace nightmares - the problematic high-performers who are potentially destroying morale and threatening the success of the entire organization. Tina has spent over 15 years consulting with companies of all sizes, helping them to navigate the delicate balance of keeping their star performers while also protecting their company culture and team morale. She's seen it all - the charming, charismatic sales superstars who undermine and belittle their colleagues, the brilliant engineers who rule through fear and intimidation, the indispensable executives who treat everyone around them with disdain…  Tina addresses and confronts businesses and individuals's blind spots to help them achieve their ultimate potential, so if you're a leader grappling with a difficult superstar on your team, you won't want to miss this! Tina will walk us through real-life case studies, offer tangible solutions, and give us a glimpse into the psychology of these challenging employees. Website Url: https://www.tinacollins.ca/ LinkedIn Profile: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/tinalcollins Script: And this is really one of the biggest reasons why quiet quitting happens. Good employees observe employees with bad behavior getting away with it.  And that's what happens when you go into the scenario with empathy instead of judgment, right? Right. Right. And curiosity. Yeah.  Because I'm willing to bet that if max performance and bad behavior is constantly overlooked, I'm willing to bet that they've already lost, if not physically, at least mentally, some of their employees.  I'm the executive director of a nonprofit organization that's dedicated to making a difference in our community. Our mission is clear and our team is passionate, but we've hit a roadblock that's threatening to derail our progress. It's a situation I never anticipated, and it's keeping me up at night. The heart of our problem lies with our vice president, who is also our highest performer. This person has been instrumental in securing the majority of our funding. Their charisma, networking skills, and ability to close deals have been nothing short of miraculous for our NGO. However, there's a dark side.  Lately, the VP has been exhibiting toxic behaviors that are causing rifts within our team. Their abrasive attitude, lack of empathy, and tendency to take credit for others' work have created an environment of fear and resentment. This toxicity is spreading, and I can see the impact it's having on our team's morale and productivity. The dilemma I'm facing is complex. On one hand, this individual is critical to our funding and by extension, our ability to operate and serve our community. On the other hand, their behavior is eroding the very foundation of our organization's culture and values. To add to this, our board absolutely loves them. Yeah, that's complicated. I'm at a crossroads trying to balance the financial stability they bring with the negative impact they have on our team situations, forcing me to question how much we're willing to compromise our principles for the sake of financial security.  Enter Tina Collins. Welcome, Tina. Thank you so much.  Tina is an award-winning seasoned leadership consultant, executive coach, and very proud to call you a friend as well. Tina explores blind spots that limit her clients' potential so they can accelerate personal and professional growth. I am so happy to have you on the show with me.  I'm so glad that you've asked me and I'm so glad that you've given me this topic. This is a juicy, juicy one. Oh my gosh, it sure is. I was like feeling overwhelmed. Just as I was reading it, I was like sensing those emotions because we've, I mean, any of us who've been in leadership roles, if we've observed people, we've been in an organization, I think a lot of us have seen this as an issue. And you said that you have some personal experience with this as well. Yeah. I mean, this could have been read from my own personal notes. I have lived this recently with a client. So yeah, I'm really excited to get into this.  Fantastic. Tina, I'd love for you to just tell everyone a little bit about yourself. What do you love about your work? And what's the impact that you want to make?  What great questions. I spent about 26 years as a management consultant before the pandemic, traveling the world. And the pandemic gave me a chance to sit at home and not be away. And that pause led me to coaching. And in the one-year program that I took, I realized that coaching was always my favorite part of consulting that I had actually been coaching the whole time. I just thought it was consulting. And once I was able to split the difference and really appreciate how each serve my clients, I was able to really lean into coaching completely. So now, so now it's more like, you know, 85% of my time is coaching and 15 is consulting versus the other way around, which was all just like a mighty mess of like, just doing everything for sure. And what it is that I love most about coaching the impact. I would say that it's actually just no longer something that I do. It's just who I am. I, at this point, just feel like I'm the vehicle for whatever transformation my clients need.  Beautiful.  Thanks. Yeah. I feel like it's a true blessing. Honestly, it's not something I take for granted that people trust me to work through whatever's blocking there. You know, it's usually what's between the ears. It's, it's a true privilege.  Yeah. And you're incredibly good at it. I feel like every single conversation I have with you, it's like, it's into a coaching conversation. It's not, you're not lying when you say that you are a coach, like literally that is who you are. You know, it's everything that you do, I think is you take that coach approach. And I think that's amazing. Thank you. Thank you. And it's funny because I used to, I found that term really prickly before I used to think like, Ooh, yeah didn't I didn't it's not a weekend because but I don't know if you remember but you could just do like a weekend coaching program and be called a coach and that just uh really rubbed me the wrong way and so it took me a while to adopt the coach name. But now I'm all in, I'm all in. And I don't feel in any way like I ever need to explain to people what it is that I do. All my clients come through from referral, which I'm so grateful for. It's, it's a really magical place.   Yeah, the coach, becoming a coach is a transformational journey for sure. I'm still on that journey big time, but, um, I feel like you're, you know, you're kind of a master, uh, mentor, um, a friend. I think that, um, you're just an amazing person. So let's dig into this and see what kind of solutions we can drum up for. Thank you.  Well, we don't have a name here, but let's call them. I don't know. Let's give them a name. What's a good name for, for this executive director?  Brenda.  Brenda. Brenda, the executive director. Perfect. Okay.  I like to have a name when I'm working with a person.  Yeah, me too. Me too.  Yes, absolutely.  Contextualize too. Yes, absolutely.  Contextualize it.  Yeah, absolutely.  And who's puppy? What's your puppy's name? We have Piper Murphy here. They are my chief security officers. If they do cause a ruckus, I will let them know. But they're almost always here with me. We love them. They're great. Okay, so we are going through, I guess we were thinking about going through this through Edward de Bono's six thinking hats, which you're probably familiar with. So just using the hats as the six lenses. So white hat, information and data, red hat, emotions and intuition, black hat, caution and risk, yellow hat, optimism and benefits, green hat, creativity and alternatives hat optimism and benefits, green hat creativity and alternatives, and blue hat process and control. So just looking at what, you know, when we're doing kind of a root cause analysis, or just looking to, you know, generate ideas on solutions, you know, thinking about the different lenses that we're looking through, and let's get started. Hey, what are your first impressions before we dig right in?  The first thing I read, or I thought of after reading the summary was an organization is only as strong as the worst behavior it's willing to accept. Yeah. And I have worked with organizations who have, so the individual in question who is like, you know, a super high performer, critical to the success of the organization, yet troubling behavior is often a secret cow. You know, these are individuals whose bad behavior is often overlooked in an organization because of what they bring to the organization. And while the benefits are tangible, you know, in this case, he brings in revenue, I mean, which is really important, especially if it's a fundraising, you know in this case he brings in revenue i mean which is really important especially if it's a fundraising you know i mean they can't do anything without money the long-term effects it has on the organization as a whole are immeasurable yeah have you seen a situation where um someone can you know we can address the behavior head- know, we can address the behavior head on and we can change the behavior of, of a person in this scenario. Absolutely. A lot of times, you know, like this is where I love working in the blind spots because a lot of times people's bad behavior, they don't even know that it's bad behavior. They just think it's part of their personality. And until someone brings it to their attention, it's not obvious to them. want to be part of a social group. They don't want to be ostracized. They don't want to hurt people. You know, so unless this person, what's his, what's, I'm calling it in my hand, but what's this person's name? I'm making some assumptions. Yeah.  Maybe we should find a general gender neutral name just so that it's, let's see, gender neutral. We'll call them mac okay okay I know females and males named mac yeah excellent excellent so um in mac situation unless mac has a personality disorder which they might have we don't know um i mean that's a completely different thing, but, but a lot of times it's just bringing that to light, you know, that like your performance is, is impacting the organization in this way. Is this how you want to be perceived? Is this how you want to show up? Yeah. Because honestly, sometimes it's just a tiny, tiny little shift that makes all the difference. Mm-hmm. It's just a tiny, tiny little shift that makes all the difference. And what I'm not seeing from this, and it's, you know, it's obviously impossible to know everything from this case. We think we have to make some assumptions here. I'm not seeing that Brenda has actually directly addressed this with Mac. Well, if this is something, if he's been behaving badly and been a top performer, I'm assuming that it's gone on for a while. And if the board loves him, that means that they have a relationship with him. It means like that he's been part of the team for a while.  Yeah. And so, you know, some of the responsibility is on the director, on Brenda's shoulders to say, you know, this is something you should have addressed the first time you saw it. I am noticing that they say lately the VP has been exhibiting toxic behaviors. So we don't know what the timeframe is really. But I presume that maybe this hasn't always been the case. So in terms of like information and data, what would you, if you're going in and you're trying to support this team as a consultant or as a coach, what would you suggest to Brenda? Let's pretend you're Brenda's coach. How would you, you know, how would you suggest that they gather a business case? Or is that even necessary? Well, I would want to know exactly what Brenda's intentions are. Is it to improve her team or is it to develop strategies so she can manage better?  Because if he's a big personality, he may also be triggering some things in her. So if her goal is to create a better team, then I would recommend coming into the team and having a couple of sessions where we scenario map different values, different visions of the organization and allow everyone in the organization to have a voice. This might shed light on some of the prickly factors having a negative impact on everyone's performance. It also allows an organization to determine what is is a value you know because i mean every organization says we value trust we value openness we value all these things but when i say to them so what's the cost of not living up to the values and they there is no consequence then it's not a value so if mac if one of their values is um respect and mac is breaching that respect on a regular basis then we need to reevaluate whether respect is in fact a value because if it's, if it's tolerated only by Mac, that's a major problem, but erodes the entire workforce. For sure. Now, do you, as a consultant, when you're wearing your consultant hat, do you recommend building these kinds of values into performance development, performance management, 360, leadership, assessments, those kinds of things? When it comes to a team, I mean, individuals have their values, which change over time and context. But when I work with a team, I take sort of like an accordion approach, where if we're, if we're working together, there's going to be some one-on-one coaching, and there's going to be some team coaching. And the team coaching looks more like, well, at first we, we like develop scenarios, develop values. Like we create a vision of like, what's the best case scenario that we want here and what does it look like in the worst case scenario because sometimes they are living the worst case scenario so just identifying that you know oh geez this is where we're living um but this is what we'd like to and then and then hooking all of the work that we do on three, but I never do more than three values, because I want everyone to be able to remember them off the top of their head. And so often communication is always one of their values, their format or one-on-one coaching then I can say well you know where does this fall within you in the context of the organization you know because some people are great communicators and some are terrible and some don't even know where they fall and so if communication is a top value of an organization let's dig in so yeah we I always have something to like hook all of us, which is sort of like the anchor, if you will.  Otherwise, everyone's like, you know, squirrels at a rave. I love that. I'm going to use that one, squirrels at a rave. So good. that i'm gonna use that one squirrels at a rave so good um do you do you suggest though like benchmarking this in any way so that you have the data or is it more you know you prefer an anecdotal conversational um way of you know gathering information on their present state or their emotional environment in the workplace?  Well, we, we definitely talk a lot about stories. Like that's like, you know, I want people to be expressive and understand it in their context because everyone thinks differently. And so the more we talk about it, the more they can relate to a different version of the same story. But I think it's absolutely critical for organizations to measure the performance of whatever objective we're doing. So in this particular case, we would want to know, how are we going to measure Mac's performance?  And it's not just having an impact on Mac and the ED, it's the entire team. Because I'm willing to bet that if Mac's performance and bad behavior is constantly overlooked, I'm willing to bet that they've already lost, if not physically, at least mentally, if not physically, at least mentally, some of their employees. So it's not like the, so the performance isn't just on Mac, it's the entire organization. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is really one of the biggest reasons why quiet quitting happens. Good employees observe bad employees or employees with bad behavior getting away with it. Right. And then they think to themselves, then what's, why should I bother doing great work?  So you've been in this industry, you know, in different types of roles, you know, in wearing different hats, different types of government, non-governmental, private sector, you know, different kinds of organizations, big organizations, small organizations, Canada, globally. I'm curious whether you're seeing this scenario, is this like a tale as old as time? Or are you seeing this in terms of like, you know, we know that our culture is evolving. We're going through a bit of a cultural revolution right now. Is that an element?  Are you seeing this more or is this, you know, this is just, this is just business. I'm going to say both. I'm going to say that it is a tale as old as time. I have seen this for the 28 years now that I've been doing this type of work, but I definitely think that there's a much more aware and aggressive desire to correct this behavior because like anything else, you know, we have psychologists who are now studying this stuff and they can like provide us with real metrics and value to the the outcomes the impact of this type of behavior you know like like like why quitting like i mean and or like um you know employee turnover rates you know we know that that's a very costly chunk of organization's budget.  And so how do we attract, retain, and maintain some amazing teams? We have to invest in them. And investing them also means coaching people like Mac through these prickly conversations to adjust their behaviors. Yeah. At what point does an executive or a manager's behavior become so like a lost cause? Like at what point would you suggest, you know, it, you know, it's worth finding solutions, like internal solutions so that we can transition them out. It's a really great question. I think every organization needs to figure out what that measure is. Like what, what, what's'm a very optimistic. I like the idea of like an amazing inclusive organization. I love psychological safety and empowerment. I love cognitive diversity. I love all of those things. And I would, I would love to like empower organizations to onboard all of those things. But I do know that there are different industries, you know, like what would work in the Canadian forces. And they've been my client for a very long time is very different from let's say my client who does online learning. You know, the environment in which they work is completely different. And so where one can be very, not slow moving, but like more thoughtful in their decision-making may not be possible in another industry. And so every industry, every organization, I think needs to evaluate that those specific needs based on the impact that they're making. You know, if the impact is we're saving lives and this is time sensitive, how you get there is going to be very, very different from, let's say, perhaps a retail operation. Yeah. from, let's say, perhaps a retail operation. Yeah. And it strikes me that, you know, obviously we know that not everyone is a great fit for every job. So it's kind of, I think it probably has to be some kind of compromise, you know, between, you know, people within a relationship, within an organization to say, I'm willing to change my behaviors so that I can, you know, fit in this organization better, or, you know, maybe it's, I can't, and this isn't the right fit for me. What would you think? What do you think about that?  You know, a lot of that has to do with feedback, you know, and I'm willing to bet that Brenda, if this behavior has been going on for a while, I would ask Brenda, what's keeping her from giving Mac some really hard feedback?  Yeah. You know, most people don't like giving negative feedback, but I really, I mean, I think it was Abby Wamba, who once said when she was playing at the national level soccer, or I think it was the Olympics, it dawned on her that if the coach stopped providing feedback to the players, those players were likely going to be benched and not playing. And so, you know, so I took that sports metaphor and I ran with it i thought to myself okay if the boss is not giving the employees feedback that means that the boss is no longer investing or seeing value in the employees and you know so so if that's true and brenda's not giving mac feedback either she doesn't see the value of Mac or she doesn't want to do the hard work, which is give negative feedback because she doesn't want to disappoint Mac or whatever. But that's, that's love. You know, sometimes love looks like, Hey, listen, I value you so much. I want us to be successful. But this thing that you're doing is really having a negative impact on the rest of the team. So like, what can we do to change that, to shift it? Like, that's an important conversation. And so some of the responsibility very much lies on Brenda's shoulders in this case. It does. My best, the best leaders I ever had were the ones who told me what I had to hear, what I needed to hear, not what I wanted to hear. Right. You know, definitely. And so I agree with that. And that's so hard. I remember, you know, being a new manager and, you know, how difficult that really is. Cause you, your instinct, I don't know if it's a feminine, I know it's not totally feminine thing, but being a mom, you know, a young mom at the time as well, like my instinct was to shelter them, you know, to protect them from, from harm, not to, from, you know, not, and then I realized I was actually harming them more when I realized that, you know, that changed and then I realized I was actually harming them more when I realized that, you know, that changed my perspective, but yeah, that's a, that's a hard trans transition to go through for a lot of people. It is. And it's one that once they realize that not providing the feedback is actually more harmful, they start opening themselves up to the process of learning how to give feedback. Yeah. I mean, it's just a conversation. It is a difficult conversation, but it's, it's just a conversation. And if you can learn the tools to having those prickly conversations, they become easier. And it's like, it's like wanting biceps, you know, if you want biceps, you have to lift muscle or you have to lift weights. Well, the same goes for having difficult conversations. The more you practice them and the more you have them, the easier they get. That's true. Yeah.  So what can be done in terms of building this into the systems of the organization? What do you recommend there?  You know, so it makes it easier for us to engage in these conversations because it's built into part of the process. Well, I think part of it is just, you know, including it in an annual, if not semi-annual performance evaluation, just an opportunity for both parties to sit down and evaluate you know where are we based on what we agreed would happen and based on the organization's values you know like if we say communication is important how are we doing with that yeah i think that's like the easiest least costly initiative that any organization can do and I know it takes a lot of time and thoughtfulness and you know having to overcome all of the personal stuff but that's that's bold yeah then of course I would say hire a coach and probably a therapist and find a mentor have all three of them yeah because I mean you need objectivity you need people on the outside looking in to see what you don't see yeah yeah and to also like help you find the courage to do what you know you need to do but are having trouble stepping into that or finding the energy for it so yeah I found that's where coaching because you're committing you know when in a coaching session we know the very end of the coaching session usually you're making your commitments and it's through the process of making those commitments that you actually find that that and the energy, I think. Yeah, accountability makes all the difference, for sure. Yeah, I mean, I can remember one group that I worked with. Near the end of our engagement, I was known as the most expensive donut deliverer because I always brought treats, including donuts. And I would just show up to meetings and, and observe. Yeah. And the CEO was so grateful because he said, you don't have to say anything or do anything. We bring the best versions of ourselves to the table when you're here.  Yeah. Because if we don't, we're going to get it in our coaching session, you know, and because, because of these observations and, and them trying on new behaviors in a group context, they were able to see something that they couldn't on their own that like, oh, when I just suspend my judgment and I ask more questions, the outcomes are different, more positive. You know, it's a pretty simple process and yet it often doesn't happen without an objective observer okay so our conclusion for brenda is is what we're not going to turf him yet no no we're not going to throw the baby out with the bath water. Right. Yeah. We're going to stay curious and find out what's keeping her from giving him hard feedback. Absolutely. Yeah. And then we're going to investigate whether this is something she needs for her team and whether Mac is valued enough to get some feedback and coaching. Yeah. To improve his overall performance.  Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's really strange. I mean, I, I, I have to like interject. I have a client who once came to me and he's, and like, this is a very similar situation. He was definitely the sacred cow of his organization and this was a billion dollar business so like big big big stuff and his staff were giving me glimpses of what it is that that they wanted him to shift without actually calling it out. And I think they were terrified of what was happening. Okay. And so I get him into a coaching session and I just call him out. Like what is going on? What is this thing that everyone's talking about, but no one like, what's this elephant. And he says to me, strangely, the older I get, the harder time I have controlling my emotions. And I thought, well, that's interesting. What emotions specifically are they talking about?  Because if it's tears and, and whatever, I'm sure that's not what the problem is. So it's got to be like an aggression, you know, behind what's going on. And sure enough, you know, behind what's going on. And sure enough, he tells me what's going on. And the outcome of this is that he made a doctor's appointment and found out that he was having a hormonal problem. Okay. Yeah. So this had nothing to do with psychology or mindset or performance metrics. It was a physical thing that was happening to him, but he, it was out of his control. Yeah. And so, but, but in the process of coaching, we were able, I mean, I did not diagnose him. We just opened this possibility that like, well, what if it's that?  And he was like, yeah, well, I have felt a little weird and I, you know, and so I, so, you know, who could you ask for support that? And he was like, well, well, I have felt a little weird. And, you know, and so I said, you know, who could you ask for support that? And he was like, well, I guess I should make a doctor's appointment. Great. That's a great idea. And so the next time he came in, he had had his doctor's appointment and had this diagnosis and was now on medication to regulate his hormones. And sure enough, everyone reported that it was like a flip of a switch happened and he was back to his normal self. Yeah. Amazing. Amazing. Yeah. And that's what happens when you go into the scenario with empathy instead of judgment. Right. Right. Right. And curiosity. Yeah. Like what else might be happening here? I think it's important to presume that people are not evil. This is, you know, I talk about this all the time. I call it positive intent. Enter every single interaction with positive intent. Give everyone the benefit of the doubt, even if you've had negative interactions with them. You have no idea what people are going through. And in fact, like this guy, he didn't know what he was going through and in fact like this guy he didn't know what he was going through for sure yeah i agree i wholeheartedly agree i think most people mean well i think that's true yeah i think that people want what's best and you know and it's it's complicated life is complicated it Life is complicated. It sure is. Yeah, it sure is. Yeah. Oh, well, on that note, is there anything exciting on the horizon for you, you wanted to chat about?  I'm excited to be talking at the Chamber of Commerce's, you know carlton place they have a business set i'm very excited about that you need to do that too and my workshop is going to be on psychological safety which is something I'm very very passionate about i'm really excited about that that's perfect yeah okay good yeah and that's may 14th I believe for anyone who is in the Carleton Place and or Ottawa region. Right. Mm hmm. Yes. Wonderful. Yeah. What about you? Oh, gosh. Well, we are just about to launch the Train to Help project, train to help dot com. e-learning it's part e-learning platform part marketing platform for small businesses brick and mortar businesses so that they can improve the inclusion and accessibility of their businesses through the power of customer service so that is important that's it that's it that's all you've got going on oh my god well I'd say you know if i we had a day no i'm just kidding you're extraordinary oh my gosh that's amazing yeah that's pretty cool that's gonna that's gonna make such a huge difference in the lives of so many I feel good about this I think it is going to get it back Tina yes I just love being in your in your uh solar system in your whatever you call it yeah ditto ditto.  You've got such a powerful aura. You do. I don't know how else to describe it. We are definitely members of the mutual admiration society. That is for sure. Yes.  Thank you so much for this. This was really fun. Y eah, for sure. It was awesome. Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful wonderful and don't stay out of trouble

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