Intro: Jennifer Robb is an enthusiastic and strategic finance leader with over 15 years of experience in various public and private industries, including transportation, construction, and energy. A few years ago, Jennifer experienced burnout caused by what we would call "old school toxic management". Through recovery, Jennifer discovered hidden insights about herself and the workplace. She embraced mindfulness, ignited her passion for coaching, and developed innovative strategies to motivate teams in a positive way. Her story is a beautiful reminder that even our hardest moments can lead to valuable lessons and transformative change! Stay in Touch with Jennifer: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifer-robb-cpa-cma/ For more on Jennifer and her Services: https://www.linkedin.com/in/jennifer-robb-cpa-cma/   Welcome to weirdos in the workplace. The podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work. And I'm here with the lovely Jennifer Rob. Say hello, Jennifer. Thank you. Hello everyone.  Awesome. Jennifer is an enthusiastic and strategic finance leader with over 15 years experience in various public and private sector roles, um, including in, uh, different industries, such as transportation, construction, and energy. And a few years ago, Jennifer experienced a burnout caused by what we might call, uh, old school toxic management. We're going to talk about that and the process of recovery has led her to discover herself for mindfulness and coaching practice and win win ways of motivating teams. So welcome Jennifer to weirdos in the workplace. Thank you. And thanks for having me. Yeah. My pleasure. Um, so let's share a little bit about yourself, please, so that everyone here can get to know you, get to know your background a little bit, and, you know, especially regarding this burnout, just if you can, if you can kind of lead us, um, on the journey a little bit. Mm hmm.  So, I am a CPA. Um, I also have a  I studied and worked abroad in different capacities. I'm also a mom of two, which is important,  because, you know, everyone has a life outside of work. Everyone is a full and complete human being. And sometimes a lot of these worlds collide, uh, for better or worse. And I went through this period of, um,  intense work where I was very capable of doing the work and unfortunately the work just get kept getting piled on. So through COVID there were some, you know, everyone had challenges, right? People were leaving the workplace. They were quitting through vaccine mandates. There were so many changes that were going on and that led, um, me to a position of covering a number of jobs. And it went on for such an extended period of time.  It was really hard for me to let go because I loved what I was doing. And I love doing things like innovating and process improvements and making things better. And I didn't see it  coming. I just eventually got to this place where  I was so burnt out and I was frustrated and cynical and I just didn't realize where I had backed myself into a corner.  And I really needed to make some personal changes, to take a break, to let myself heal.  When you are clinically diagnosed with burnout, which I was, it's, it's a tough situation. You know, we, we overuse burnout. Um, you know, we say at the end of the week, oh, it's Friday, I'm burnt out. But when you are clinically burnt out, that that's just a different level of burnout. It's one where you need, um, like psychological support and it's one where you need even, um,  Rest and recovery, not just physically, but for your brain. And that's really different place to be in. And I didn't realize what it meant until I was in it until it was too late. I think that that's actually really important. And I think you're totally right. We use burnout  often. I think people are tired. And they use the words burnout, you know, and I try to, I try to hold a strong line there myself. A lot of people are constantly concerned that I'm going to burn out because of the number of things, number of hats that I wear. Um, and I, what I always say is I might be tired sometimes, but I'm really good at managing my energy. I'm really good at making sure that I'm eating well. I'm exercising, I'm drinking water, I'm sleeping, you know, I'm seeing, I'm seeing my friends and, and I have support, like I'm okay, you know, um, and yeah, I might be tired sometimes and I'll let you know if I'm tired, but I'm not burnt out. Um, but I do think I, and I have, I have also experienced burnout in my twenties and it is very different. It's debilitating. Um, and so I, I, I do know the difference personally, but I don't think a lot of people do.  How did you experience burnout? What was the experience for you?  So  unfortunately it was, it was quite sad because I'm a very goal oriented person and I have a lot of grit, which is great. Like I can, I can like. really dig my heels in, be determined, accomplish my goals. But grit doesn't always serve you well. And what I learned was that,  uh, there was a book by Annie Duke called Quit. Yeah. And she, in a way, really changed my life. So thank you, Annie. Um, because she, In her book she talks about when is it worthwhile to grit through something and to bear down and get it done, and when does it not serve you enough, and for me, having my eyes set on these goals, because I wanted to accomplish them. It meant. Then I had to cut away everything else. So  sleep, you know, I don't, I don't have time to sleep right now. I've got to get this done. I don't have time to, you know,  make sure I'm fed with nutritious foods. I've got to have like protein bars in my drawer. And that's what I would eat all day long. I had an espresso machine in my office like, and come on,  it's great coffee. Um,  And I, I started working out really intensely as a coping mechanism and it wasn't healthy. When I look back on it, I did it because it was just so intense and it just allowed me to, to just release that energy, that negative energy I felt, but looking back on it now, it was just a coping mechanism. And what happened was at the end, um,  you know,  I left my job and I kind of collapsed and it was like this.  Collapse of physical tiredness, mental tiredness. I literally just stayed in bed for like days on end and my husband was quite worried about me and I tried to, you know, hide it as much as I could for my kids because I didn't want them to, you know, feel  as if their mom was going through something traumatic, but it really was trauma. In a way, because I had pushed myself to the extent  that I had lost control of  my mental composure. I, I, I lived almost on a different planet and I was so hypervigilant, you know, everything had a deeper meaning, everything was sort of out of control. And when I saw the psychiatrist who diagnosed me with burnout,  you know, initially I thought I had something like. Um, I was on the spectrum somehow, like I had ADHD or something and he's like, no,  you are so burnt out.  You need time and space to just calm your brain down, calm your body down and just stay with it. And it's been a long road. It's been.  Yeah, it's been like two years, and I'm still, you know, learning new techniques and learning new tools to keep me grounded. And through that experience, I did a lot of coaching, I did a lot of journaling, I did a lot of learning about mindfulness practices, and just being in tune with your body, and learning, you know, some painful lessons about  what do I value. Does this serve me or does it not serve me?  And it's, it seems quite simple.  It's also like a hard lesson to learn when you get there. Yeah. And I find that burnout often, um,  it often happens to people who are high performing. You're high performing, you know, that those type of personalities, right.  And, and I wanted to be, I wanted to achieve those goals. Like I'm a capable person. If I don't know how to do it, there's nothing that can stop me from learning how to do it. Um, I was, I was very much a person where I would say.  Okay, this is my task. I may not know how to do it, but I'm certainly going to figure it out. And I would be really happy with those big challenges. So it was really hard for me to take that step back. Uh, but what it, where it led me to was it, In the end, I wish I hadn't gotten so burnt out, but it led me to a place of learning about, you know, how all these things can benefit me and my leadership skills. So, you know, mindfulness, being, um, being aware and seeing people through not just their eyes and not their viewpoints, but seeing them through their whole lives and what's going on and having more compassion for other people and thinking. You know, that person doesn't seem themselves. They didn't react very well.  There's a logic to that and there must be something going on in their life. That's.  You know, and, and looking at people as other humans more than employees or, you know, team members, you know, there was a book that I read and I think it was called how, how to be human. I'll, I'll look it up so you can put it in the notes but it really talked about the human side of, you know, understanding what's behind everyone. And even the people that we know really well, we only know about 30%. of what's going on in their life. So there's this whole iceberg below the surface that we're unaware of. And keeping that in mind allowed me to be kind to myself  because I realized, you know, other people don't know what's going on with me and likewise. So it allowed me to approach a lot of things with more compassion and kindness and patience. Yeah.  And it also gave me permission  to forgive people, not, not because Of what they did necessarily, but in the act of forgiving people, I'm not saying I for said it was right what they did, or I'm not judging them. It allowed me to let go of that negative energy. And that was really key for me. I don't forgive people for them. I forgive them for myself. You sound very self possessed, like you feel like you have, you know, you have more control over, you know, your boundaries, um, your, your, you know, your own emotions, um, how your, you know, your interpersonal relationships, um, would you say that that sounds accurate? Um, and it was, it was a journey to get here, uh, used, I had two fabulous coaches that I worked with and I worked at it. You, you can't fake the work.  But the work was so rewarding. Right. And that is what led me to really want to  do more things in terms of helping people. So, as part of that healing journey, um, I volunteer with the Royal Canadian Marines Search and Rescue. And they offered up this critical incident stress management course. So what we would do is when there's been a particularly traumatic incident, uh, so for example, these are volunteers who go out and rescue people. If they've suffered some sort of emotional trauma, we are trained to go in and help them process that trauma. And I think Getting involved with that was so key in helping me process my own grief and trauma from being burnt out and in the workplace.  And then that led me to the new spot about, you know, really wanting to take the executive coaching and become an executive coach, not necessarily to go out and start my own consulting business. That, that may happen, but to also bring that in house to organizations,  because I think  organizations do lack that skill. And a lot of organizations don't have the money or, you know, the consulting budget to be able to bring that in house. And so, Yeah. And I really believe, you know, I, I really believe in making the world a better place. And that's, that's a big, uh, commitment from an accountant.  So I'm not saving people's lives and, you know, I'm not like rescuing people from all these different, um, you know, traumatic situations. But I believe that in whatever capacity you have, you can make the world a better place or not. Yeah.  Yeah, total 100 percent your actions have a ripple effect for sure.  And we really believe in coaching cultures here. So anytime someone can learn the skill of coaching and bring it into their organizations. That's what I did originally. You know, I didn't. go out. I didn't become a coach and take coach training because I wanted to be a coach like an independent coach. I did it because I wanted to be a great manager, you know, a great people manager. I wanted to be able to serve my team to the best of my abilities. Um, and I knew that coaching was a valuable skill. And so that's, that was the reason why I took coaching. And I think that that is one of the better reasons, honestly, to become a coach, to learn that skill. Yeah, definitely.  Um,  So obviously you didn't get here on your own, you know, you, you didn't burn out in a silo. Um, I do think that, you know, we have more autonomy than we sometimes know that we do, or we have the skill. We don't always have the skills, right. To set those boundaries, to have those difficult conversations, to like, you know, to, to, you know,  You don't have the personal power necessarily, um, in every situation at work that you need to have in order to protect yourself properly. Right.  Um,  but, but you certainly, you don't get there in a silo, you know, um, and what,  um, sometimes the only thing you can do is leave. And I think that you've demonstrated that,  but tell me about, you know, without obviously, you know,  being discreet about it as you can, um, tell me about the scenario that, how, how did this evolve in the workplace?  Yeah. So  I,  I think I was very naive.  Um, and I believed that I could show how important finance and accounting wise and how beneficial it could be for an organization. And I really believe that finance is a strategic business partner. We can serve the organization. We can help the organization. You know, we are service providers to give good quality information that people can make the best possible decisions with. And I was, I was fooling myself. Um, and I didn't realize. That this organization didn't value that.  Um, one of the also things like, and I, so I, I do value my own profession and I am, um, biased, of course.  I also believe in innovation  and being really authentic and, What's really important to me when we talk about innovation  is it really starts with diversity of thought. And if people aren't willing to come to the table to discuss and brainstorm different ideas,  then they really don't believe in innovation at all. And, you know, there's, I also feel there's a link between DEI initiatives and  Diversity of thought.  You know, we're really great at saying,  you know, we believe in diverse cultures, but do we believe in diverse ways of thinking?  Not so sure. In the organizations I've worked at, um, I think we could have done better and, and maybe part of that was, was my fault and I, I own that, but I, I think we need to also open our minds a little bit and realize that brainstorming and diversity of thought  Is that first step towards making things better or making meaningful, intentional changes in the workplace?  I 100 percent agree with you. Um, yes, I think that  there are so many different ways that the brain works in different people. And the only way that we can solve the world's problems that we have today, I think, is to think differently. Um, I think that becomes kind of tricky in a larger organization. I've worked with a few holocracies. Um, which are very, very, very interesting, dynamic organizations, very flat organizations, um, or teal organizations and,  uh, they, they have their own challenges, you know, um, there are, you know, and, and, and the teal organizations, the whole holocratic organizations, they really value this as well. Um,  It's interesting. Like, I think that we have to take everything in balance. This is where I'm coming. Like, I feel like  as I, as I've learned about diversity and inclusion, it's like the pendulum kind of swings all the way one way, and then you realize, you know, if I'm working, for example, if I'm working with a creative team, you know, a lot of creative teams. strongly value collaboration, innovation, diversity of thought, you know, they're chaotic, they're beautiful and they're a chaos. Um, and then often they'll come out with a product that's very interesting  if they can work together.  Um, but  the, it's almost like the more they get to know each other, the more comfortable organizations get. There's so many, there's so many challenges that, that come up with these types of teams as well. Um, so I don't think there's a perfect. Perfect solution, all that to say. I think it's, I think that, you know, we need to manage people's expectations, um, through the process. It's like valuing people's experience, valuing their ideas, but then also someone needs to be able to make decisions, right? Yes. Yeah.  And those first ideas, they may not be the right ones. Uh, but they may, they may spur someone's creativity to get you to the right one. And, you know, I think if you're going to pick up a bow and arrow, and if you're going to shoot at the target,  I don't think you're going to hit a bullseye the very first time. I think you have to be prepared to miss the mark in the process of hitting that bullseye. And, you know, Making mistakes and making suggestions that ultimately lead to a better place is, is part of the process. And  I think it's a really great thing when an organization can be open and they can have brainstorming sessions and keep things moving. Because I think we live in a world where change is so constant and it's so fast. We have to become, we have to figure out a better model. And Right of how to organize things into how to, how to think of these things quickly and efficiently and not,  not waste time, so to speak, um, in, in one organization I worked for, we would do these, like, very well intention, intention sessions where, you know, we take a day. The management team would work on certain projects,  and we were all just so nervous and apprehensive to share,  and because of that, the organization didn't progress. And this was an organization that said they valued innovation. And. I wish I could tell the senior leadership that, you know, when people are not participating, that's a message,  right? That's, they, yeah,  they're afraid to put forward these ideas, and  they just weren't, I don't believe. It was intentional. I think they truly believed they thought of innovation, but that's where I get back to the diversity of thought and having these open, robust discussions that are used to generate like new ideas or new products, new services, new processes. Those are really important. And, um,  I totally agree.  It's about trust. I mean, trust is the foundation for everything, right? If you can't trust the people that you work with, um, it's going to be very difficult,  but people are also very, um, attached. to their own thoughts, especially strong minded people. Absolutely. Absolutely. And it didn't really hit home. Like after,  after I got really burnt out, I started taking courses and I took this one change management course and it was so valuable to me because  the instructor was incredible. And this was at Royal Roads University.  And  She told us and, and taught us through like literature and, and different research, all change begins with a loss.  And I had never thought of it that way. And it is so true because whether it is a small change or a big change, everyone loses something right off the bat. So for example, if you're implementing a new software system,  you have to  lose your, um,  capability, so to speak, and your expertise in that software system. You could have worked with that software system for five years and you were really good at it. And now you have to lose.  That that part of you that knows what you're doing and step into a new program where you don't know what you're doing. And I think it's that loss that really holds us back. And yes, that new software system may be wonderful and 10 times better than the last one. But I think people forget that that loss. It's what holds us back from change.  Now, do you think there is hope in an organization, um,  where, you know, there, it's a very command and control environment, um, you know, maybe the trust isn't, isn't very high, uh, and folks are starting to feel burnt out, like, Where would you as a, um, maybe a, like a mid level manager or a director, uh, where would you start? Would you, would you think there's hope to make change within the organization and to manage upward there?  I'll always believe in hope. I know. I'm a hopeful person and I do believe it.  I just think there has to be the right conditions.  So, and I, I do  really believe that the culture over the organization. Has to come from the top and if you're pushing the culture from the bottom up, it's going to be  a lot more taxing on people emotionally. It's going to be a lot more work. It's going to take a lot longer. I do believe that there is hope because even in your own work group. You can have your own microculture, so to speak. Um, and you can start building up that microculture, and hopefully that will spread to other cultures, and here is how we apply it. And there is strategy involved, so, you know, you can speak to your own VP, you can speak to, you know, the executive management, you can try your best, but ultimately, And this is, this has been a really hard lesson for me to learn. If people aren't open to having the conversation and they're not willing to listen,  it's going to be a really hard, long road.  And maybe it'll take some creativity to think, you know,  who can we get on our side to help bring on the executive management? And I know they have different priorities and different stresses, and that's part of the nature of the game.  And when you think about doing the right thing and sustainability, it doesn't just mean the environment, right? You need to have sustainability in your workplace. You need to, um,  think about how much it actually costs your business. So, um, when I listened to a previous episode of yours with Eleanor Eves and corporate trauma, it, it really costs the business. the organization a lot. And I think if it were easier to measure, we would do it  and we could see it. It's, it's a tough thing to measure. And I've thought about this being an accountant, but turnover, there's a cost to that. Um, and those are very, Very easy to track costs. So you've got like you've got a post for new positions. You've got an interview. There's all that time. You've got to get that person up to speed training all of that. And if you look at  Are we trapping our employees? And what I mean by that is, are you  paying them so much that they're never going to leave? And I believe in paying people what they're worth, but I also believe in having,  having freedoms and autonomy so that they are able to speak their mind to help enable those changes.  I mean, I would be seriously interested in how transparent that organization is, um,  organizations that don't want to measure, you know, their HR metrics, um, change over time. Um, they tend not to be very transparent in general. And there's a reason for that. It's not difficult to measure these things, like you said. So what's the reason why we're not measuring them and publicizing those details? Yeah, and you can measure a lot of metrics that make you look good. Oh, sure. Yeah. Yeah. And it's, it's This is what I always do when I go on Amazon, like I've learned, I want to buy a product. Yeah, I could, I could read the good reviews and make myself feel better. I'm like, yes, but no, I want to read the bad reviews and I want to take those bad reviews seriously. And when, you know, companies are doing survey after survey after survey, put the, put  the positive responses aside. And take a look at those negative responses. And of course, there's going to be jaded people, there's going to be ones that, you know, don't really have any merit to them, but there's also going to be patterns. So look for the patterns. And there's also going to be, um, grains of truth in there. And I think you have to mine for that. Yeah. And you have to ask the right questions, like a yes or no question. That's not going to give you the answery answer that you want. Sorry. It it's going for these like non binary questions and asking them that the hows and the history and, and getting to those  situations where  you're mining for that gold.  And you have to be prepared to hear something that you don't potentially like because what else is growth then taking your, your faults or your shortcomings and building them up, and there's nothing wrong with it we all have. You know, shortcomings, but, um, Adam Grant, um, in his book, Hidden Potential, he talks about how organizations should build scaffolding systems.  They are a support, they're meant to be temporary, they're meant to get people to where they need to be. Right. And then when they're there. You remove the scaffolding. And I thought that was such a great way of, you know, introducing a support system because, you know,  you want to keep people, you want to grow people, you want to make things better.  And I couldn't think of a better way of saying it than a scaffolding. You put it in place when you need it, take it away when it's, when you're done. Yeah. It's a great, great metaphor for sure. Um, yeah, there should be specific interventions Uh, specific phases of an employee's career, you know, like when they're onboarding, there should be specific interventions for onboarding with mentoring support, with training, um, to get them up to speed as quickly as possible, make them feel like they belong, help them, you know, integrate into the culture of the organization, um, when they're advancing in their career, same thing. If there's a new responsibility or accountability. They're the same thing. Right. You know, there are phases, very specific phases where there should be some kind of intervention. And if there's not, then,  you know, organizations is why organizations become chaotic, because there is no continuity.  Right. People are having to learn things on their own, which is, you know, it's not a bad thing, but,  um, yeah, it's not a bad thing. Um, and it can be a good thing because you have a sense of accomplishment to sit down and figure it out. It's just that, uh, for me, um, I also did not  take responsibility for all the things that was going on like outside of work as well. So there is just so much like. All at once. And, um, I really  needed, um, boundaries, which I didn't hold to very well. And I remember when I was in the thick of it, um,  I did tell my boss, you know, I'm really tired. I need the weekend off. I just need to rest. And because we were in budget season, I was the only one who was, Who is doing it. I was the only one who knew the software program. So it wasn't really great in terms of like continuity or, uh, backup. It was just, you know, it was sad because.  You know, my boss said to me, sorry, I really need you to come in. I know you need to rest, but come in. And, you know, I was like, okay, I'll do it. I'll like rip my teeth. I'll come in. And, you know, I think. Looking back on it, not that I wanted to ever say no, but I would have been better off to say, actually,  let let me just take one day off. Let me come in on Sunday. Let me have that day of rest and I'll be able to serve you better. And yeah, um,  I do think in a lot of organizations too,  there's a lack of focus on the internal departments.  The ones that serve the people. So,  you know, it's funny. Certain departments always have certain sort of, um,  reputations. So the legal department, the accounting department, you know, the marketing department, you know, so like the marketing departments are the fun ones. And so it's been valid. Yeah. Public relations. They're great. But accounting, uh, like they have so many rules and, and it's true. We do have a lot of rules, but we're doing it for the good of the organization. Right. And  there are reasons for it. And it's, it's just a shame that,  uh, there isn't that, um,  sort of recognition that all departments are really needed in a business and we need to focus on the internal as well, much as the external.  Yeah. And often, um, that sort of, that sensibility or that, you know, That vibe, I guess, comes from the leader. You know, the, the person who has the most power within an organization office often sets the tone. Um, so you'll see organizations that, you know, some organizations highly value sales and that's all they care about to the detriment of almost anything, everything else and other organizations value governance almost to the detriment of everything else. And you can, you can usually guarantee that that's where. Their leadership, you know, started from is, is, was one of those things. And I think that's really interesting. So I think, you know, as leaders, again, allowing yourself to be influenced, right. We're going back to that, allowing yourself to be influenced and taking in many different points of view in order to make decisions and really valuing other people's perspective.  It's super important. Yeah.  Yeah. And, you know, there are lots of, lots of companies out there and one, um, would be Workday. Um, they have co CEOs. And I think that's fantastic because it's, it's a heavy burden for one person to hold. And especially when you have such a large corporation, like having co CEOs, it's great. You can bounce ideas off of each other. You can cover for each other, you know, like it's much more balanced approach. Um, and I think, uh, the more we look at different ways of doing things, I think  the healthier companies can also become. Definitely. Um, yeah. Each company can do things that fits their model and their culture. And, you know, employees can also do things that fits them, their needs and their schedules. I mean, COVID,  if COVID taught us nothing, it was that we needed flexibility and the ability to have individuality, um, and, you know, Cover their needs, right?  100 percent Um, and yeah, and I think that  you know,  some people want to be in the office and some people don't want to be in the office but the vast majority of people  want a little bit of both like the flexibility just to be treated as an adult You know,  um, and I think that's, you know, that's certainly, uh, one of the motivations that I had for, you know, starting a business that values those sorts of things is, you know, you can bring on better  employees. Awesome team members. Um,  you know, and just people are drawn to that, right? That, that, um, that culture.  Um, so if there's nothing else, if there was one thing that you wanted people to take away from this conversation, uh, what, what would that be?  I would like people to be kind to themselves and to realize  if you're feeling in a workplace  that you're the odd person out, I guarantee you're not. There are other people like you all over the place feeling the same way. And perhaps, you know, it's, it's a good way, or it's a good jumping off point to investigate coaching or getting a thinking partner because there's so much value in doing the work and if you're in a financial place that you know you can't afford it,  there's lots of opportunities to to join  or to take part in coaching programs. So when people are learning how to coach, they need to put in, uh, you know, a certain amount of hours to become accredited. And that's a really great way of getting the benefits of the coaching, but not necessarily having to pay for it. And there's coaching programs all over the country and you can find them. Um, like for example, Royal Roads, that was just one of them. They have, you know, You know, tons of coaching programs always going on and if you keep your eye open for when they need people, you can sign up that way or  you can investigate how much it would cost for certain coaches, but I, I really highly  recommend the value of having a thinking partner. It doesn't have to be long term. Um, can be short term. And if that doesn't work for you.  Look at all the resources out there. So for example, your podcast, um, you put out lots of great episodes on different things and you get people thinking there's so many different, uh, resources out there to help people feel better, right. Um, and to work through their problems.  Yeah. And I think the kinder you can be on yourself, uh, and just do the, know that you're doing the best you can.  knowing your values and recognizing that, you know, potentially if I don't fit in here, it's a, it's a value misalignment. And you can realize, you know, maybe this isn't the place for me forever. And when the right opportunity comes up, then I can, I can realign myself with the values in a different workplace. It, it's a lonely place to be when,  you know, you're feeling  That you're the crazy one and that people don't believe in you. And. It's not true. There will always be someone who believes in you, you just haven't found the right place for you yet.  Yes. And the more authentic you can be, the more yourself you are, you'll naturally find where you fit. Um, it might take a little longer, you know, the weirder you are  for the weirdos out there. It certainly took me a while to figure out where I fit, you know, but, um, eventually the people find you, people find you. Yeah. Yeah. And I liken it to wearing a really tight,  uh, cotton shirt, like a cotton dress shirt, you know, we don't give everyone the same size dress shirt, you know, um, yeah. And when you're unable to move your arms and when you're uncomfortable and when you have to constrict yourself to fit in.  That's when you can't perform at your best. You're, you perform much better when you, you know, are comfortable, when you feel like you fit in an environment. And yeah, that's, that's the, the best thing you can do for yourself. And it, it doesn't always work out when you want to, but just be patient and know that eventually do some work on your values and you will find. Where you need to be absolutely more is more when it comes to getting support. I think, you know, literally more is more, more of everything, just, you know, try different things, see what works for you. Um, you know, for myself, uh, in my personal development process, it was like, you know, literally everything, YouTube videos, um, you know,  podcasts,  um, coaching, mentoring, audiobooks, literally audiobooks, like. Book club, by the way, I wanted to mention this earlier, Annie Duke's book, um, if anyone is listening and they're interested, we have the, um, small business book club through positivist group. So it's positivist. ca slash book dash club. And actually Annie Duke is our next book that we're doing, uh, any Duke's quit and it's, uh, in September sometime. So yeah, we're meeting virtually in September, so maybe you should join us, Jennifer. I will. Yeah. In that book, she does talk about how people who are very successful,  they're practice quitters. And that sounds really counterintuitive, but they're very good at looking at what serves them and what doesn't. And they're quick to move on to something that serves them. So, uh, take a good read of that book because she has some great advice in there. I can, I can imagine. I haven't read it yet. I'm going to, I've got three weeks, I think.  Better get on that. Uh, but yeah, no, I can definitely resonate with that. People say, Aaron, don't you do everything? I'm like, actually, no, I don't. There's a lot of things I don't do and, and, and on purpose, you know? Um, and, and so we need to decide what it is that we love and what it is that we don't need. That's not serving us. It's not giving us energy. Um, there has to be some kind of energy exchange. If it's just sucking the energy out of me, that's going to be a hard note for me.  Yeah, absolutely. And she does talk about how the common sayings of, you know, quitters never win and winners never quit. That's not helpful. And it's not true because, um, good poker players, for example, they fold more than, um, people who lose a lot of money. So they're very quick and recognizing is that hand going to win? No fold, fold, fold, and they move on. And then when they do have a winning hand, so, um, quitting is a skill. Um, and it's not something to be ashamed of. It's just recognizing,  is this going to work for me? Yes. No. Do I want to spend my limited emotional energy on it? Yes. No. Move on. Yeah. In my previous job, um, we used to say hell yes or hell no with like with clients. It's like when someone come to us for, for a service. You know, do we want to work with them? Is it a hell yes or a hell no? And there we wanted to make sure there was no gray area, right? No, that's great. I love it. Because if you're, if you're on the fence and you're thinking  that's a no, that's a no. It's a no. Yeah. A hundred percent. Awesome. Thanks so much for coming, Jennifer. It's been great. No, Yeah. Thanks for having me. Um, and if anyone out there wants to get in touch with me, I'm all ears. I love meeting people and talking to them and just hearing their stories and if I can help them out in any way possible, I'd love to do that because like I said, I do believe in we're all put here to make the world a better place and whatever skills and capacities we have. Amazing. Well, and everything will be in the show notes. So if you need to get ahold of Jennifer, everything will be there. Awesome. Thank you. Thank you.

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