Erin: Welcome to weirdos in the workplace, the podcast where we celebrate authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose and the transformational effect that these can have on our world of work. I'm so excited to welcome back Eleonore Eves. Hello, Eleonore. Eleonore: Hello, my dear. Thank you for having me back. Erin: I'm super excited to have you back. If you remember Eleonore, or joined us a couple of months ago talking all about executive presence. Eleonore is a professional, certified executive coach and the founder of Eaves Coaching. And we'll let you know later on how to get a hold of Eleonore, but today we're chatting about McKinsey's Women in the Workplace report for 2023. I believe it's the 9th year that they've put out this report, and someday I will go back and look at all of them and figure out how things have evolved. But they interviewed over 27,000 employees at more than 276 participating organizations. So it's pretty crazy. And we are going to talk about. We're going to break down the four myths. So there are four myths that they have discussed in this report, and Eleonore and I are going to chat about them. Right, Eleonore? Eleonore: Can't wait. Erin: Awesome. Stay tuned. [intro music] Erin: Let's get started. What did you think about this report, Eleonore? If you had to kind of sum up your feelings about it? Eleonore: I actually liked that it addressed a lot of common myths. Right. The four big ones. Because especially with an organization with the clout that McKinsey has, it's lovely to be able to refer back to something like this. Actually, you know, here's the proof. Because a lot of times it just seems like we are making it up. So it's lovely that now there is hard proof. Erin: Yeah, absolutely. It does seem like there are a lot of preconceived notions about women in the workplace and inclusion and the different metrics that are involved. And I think that, like you say, having a reputable organization like McKinsey kind of benchmarking this, is pretty cool. So I'll just. I'll read out the four myths just to get just at the start, and then we can kind of go through them one by one. But myth number one is women are becoming less ambitious. So if you've heard that before, let it be known, it is a myth. Erin: Let it be known! Myth number two, the biggest barrier to women's advancement is the glass ceiling. Interesting. What is the reality? Myth number three, microaggressions have a micro impact. Okay. And myth number four, it's mostly women who want and benefit from flexible work. All right, let's dig in. Eleonore: I love this myth. Sorry, I'm just going to dive right into this one. Eleonore: Yeah, it is probably one of the ones that has aggravated me the absolute most for the longest time, is, well, women are just not trying hard enough. Women are not ambitious enough. There are enough seats, and especially in this day and age, they just don't want it enough. This one has been driving me mental for quite a long time, especially since every woman I coach is far more ambitious and driven than most people I have ever come across. So it has nothing to do with that. Erin: 100% agreed. In fact, you hear about the mass exodus of women in leadership positions in the workplace, right? Eleonore: Yes. Erin: Where do you think they're going? Eleonore: They're starting their own businesses. Erin: Starting their own company. Eleonore: And the proof is in the pudding here, right? I mean, the number of female founded organizations that thrive, that yield better results as far outpaces that of male dominated or male founded ones. Why is that? Because women are clearly ambitious. We meet our goals and we are driven. So to say that they're not ambitious, that's just crazy. Erin: I would say women are ambitious, but they're probably at least as frustrated as they are ambitious. Eleonore: 100%. Right. I mean, I, for one, know that I started my own business because I am ambitious, I am driven, and I realize that I can have far greater impact outcomes and even increase my financial earnings by being self employed. So if I'm going to put blood, sweat, and tears into my line of work, which I will do because I am incredibly hardworking, I would like to see something for it that's not crazy. I don't think that's crazy. I don't think that is in any way, shape, or form a negative trait. We applaud men for that. So why wouldn't I do the same thing for my own business? Erin: Yeah. The article says that nine in ten women under the age of 30 want to be promoted to the next level, and three in four aspire to become senior leaders. Those are astronomical numbers. Eleonore: Exactly. And I also love that they also broke it down into their workplaces. Whether they are remote, hybrid, or on site, regardless of the actual physical working location, women are still ambitious. Women are still looking for that next promotion, that next leveling up. It doesn't matter. So even tying it into if a woman works from home, if she's working remotely or hybrid, then she's not as dedicated or as driven as one who goes into the office, that's just plain old line. It's a myth. Erin: Yep. Absolutely. And the article also goes to state, know the flexibility of remote work is supporting women's ambition. Have you seen that also in terms of working with your clients, Eleonore? Eleonore: Absolutely right. And I know they go into it a little bit further on as to that idea of burnout, right? But when you look at what it does in terms of flexibility for your mental health and your ability to actually work when you are more at your prime, it just makes sense. I, for one, do my best work very late at night. That's just the type of person I am. If I was to go into an office during the daytime, you wouldn't get the best of. Erin: Did this. We actually created team charter at positivist group, which is my company, that literally says, if you get an email at night, it's because we feel inspired to work at night or motivated to work at night. It's not because you don't have to respond to that email. We are each in charge of our own schedules. We get to work when we can work and when we're inspired to work and when we do our best work, obviously, if we have client meetings and stuff like that, work has to get done when it gets done. But outside of the meetings that are kind of baked into our calendars, we work wherever we want, whenever we want. And that is, I think, that a lot of people, eventually employees, I hope, will be attracted to that as well. Eleonore: I hope so, too. And, I mean, I think it goes into two critical things, like you mentioned right now, which are burnout, as well as that emotional intelligence factor. Right. So two of my friends that I also think you should speak to on your podcast, Lydia DeFrancesco, and, you know, they both talk about this, of what leads to burnout and what is actual emotional intelligence of a leader, getting the best out of your teams is a smart move. So whatever that looks like, right. In this day and age, especially with the different types of technology available and different time zones that we work in, it makes less and less sense to necessarily be stuck to a rigid structure. Erin: Yeah, but it does mean that we all have to be responsible for ourselves and our own welfare as well, in a way. Right. We have to know when to draw the boundaries and not get drawn into that culture of. What am I trying to say? Like, that hustle culture, like wanting to kind of one up the one upmanship. Right. It's like I don't have to work just because someone else is working at night. Eleonore: Exactly. And again, as you said, it's about that culture. Right. What does the organizational culture look like? Erin: Yeah. And that leads us right into the second myth, which is the biggest barrier to women's advancement is the glass ceiling, aunt. Wrong. The broken rung is the greatest obstacle women face on the path to senior leadership. Eleonore: Absolutely right. Erin: Frustration. Eleonore: Right. Frustration. Erin: This is where I see this all the time. Eleonore: Absolutely. I mean, if we don't have that pipeline of talent, what do we expect? People need to be able to climb up the corporate ladder, otherwise, there's no chance. I was very glad that they also discussed the bias. Right. So when one is doing an annual performance review, looking at actually going into the details of why one needs or what the rationale is for giving a person a promotion or for not giving them their percentages for a pay increase, right. A lot of us have worked for for profit corporations where your annual bonus structure is heavily tied to that below a certain percentage. I mean, you're losing money working there, right? You're a pioneer. It has to keep up with cost of living and national inflation rates. Eleonore: And so if it's not doing that, what is the justification for that? It cannot be biased. Erin: Why do you think women aren't being promoted, even though, because of the previous myth we busted there, that they desire advancement in the workplace? Eleonore: I agree with what this report is saying in terms of bias, and especially on page, I want to say, 18 or 19, something like that. They do a really good job of providing a chart. And I know this leans more into the next section of microaggressions, but even just looking at the experiences. Right. So how safe does a person feel? And I know that's an overly simplified and utilized word, but when we look at what does a person need to do in order to, quote unquote, fit in to whatever that is, well, why does a person feel like they have to do that? Clearly because there's a culture or an expectation or a belief that who they are in and of themselves is not good enough. Erin: The report lists a whole bunch of policies, programs and practices, like best practices in the workplace, that are demonstrated or executed by top performing companies. But yet, so we know what works. We know how to prevent these issues from happening. We know how to promote people. We know how to invest in talent management. We know exactly what we need to do. Why aren't companies doing it? Eleonore: I think it depends on the company, right? Erin: Yeah. Eleonore: Ultimately, there are a number of factors. One could be that it's just lip service. Some companies are not actually invested in doing the hard work. Second reason would be it is hard work. It means actually acknowledging that there is a problem, which is very hard for a lot of people to do. I mean, even in our own lives, how often do we want to acknowledge that we are the prime culprit or cause of a particular problem? We try to find other reasons or justifications why somebody else aggrieved us or whatever. Right. Then comes another factor that even as best as some people, no matter how hard they work at this business, priorities sometimes overtake anything else. Eleonore: So they want to do the right thing. They think they're going to do the right thing, but they just don't have the time. So again, we're looking at company culture, right? What are the priorities? How is it being measured? What are the benefits of doing the right thing versus what's going to boost your bonus at the end of the year? And then there's also the sad fact that for some people, I'm not going to say it's across the board, but obviously we are humans. We would be foolish not to admit this, but there's human factors at play. If someone is benefiting from a certain system, why would they change it? Erin: Yeah, I absolutely agree with that one, that's for sure. I think that the business case, maybe we haven't developed a strong enough business case if many leaders have not implemented some of these tools, policies, practices because they believe that they have other priorities in the workplace that supersede these priorities. I just feel like maybe we haven't really done a good job of delivering why it's important to change and how it's going to actually benefit the organization. Eleonore: Right. And I think it's not a one size fits all approach for that. Right. We have to do a better job of understanding why a person or an organization is saying no. What's driving that? And then addressing that individual specific need. Right. Absolutely. Erin Patchell: All right, so the third myth, microaggressions have a micro impact. And the reality is microaggressions have a large and lasting impact on. I I'll say something. The other day that we were together, Eleonore, out the other night, and I noticed several microaggressions. I'm not even sure I didn't notice that if I had committed any myself. It's really hard to notice that in yourself, but you can sometimes start to notice them when it happens to other people. Yes. And I noticed a few things that it was starting to because I've been learning more about this lately. Erin Patchell: Right. And I'm not going to get specific. I'm going to be very general about this because I don't want to step on any toes, but I will step on toes just privately, for the record, just not publicly. We're going to step on some toes. It'll be on in a private way. But it kind of triggered me to want to include microaggression training in my onboarding, for example. Eleonore Eaves: Absolutely. Erin Patchell: I'm like, we need to get this out, the message out more. Eleonore Eaves: And I think you're spot on with that, and we see that a lot. Well, first of all, it bothers me too, if we just assume that it's only women who feel the compounding impact of microaggressions. Right. I mean, it happens to everyone and we see it across the board. But the fact that we're not even acknowledging that it is a compounding issue. You let one or two things slide, right. It's that bottling up. Eventually it just gets to you. Erin Patchell: It's like the death by 1000 cuts, right? Eleonore Eaves: 100%, yeah. Erin Patchell: Right. And the hardest part about, I think delivering feedback around this is like, people don't. It's not conscious 99% of the time, almost never conscious. Nobody wants, maybe not nobody, but almost nobody wants to hurt another person. We don't want to hurt another person. And a lot of the times when I've seen microaggressions, often they think that they're delivering a compliment. Sometimes. Eleonore Eaves: Well, they think they're delivering a compliment. Or they feel very defensive in that state. Right. Erin Patchell: Or they're curious. People are curious sometimes, and they don't realize their curiosity is actually creating a very tangible discomfort for somebody. Eleonore Eaves: Right, exactly. Or it's passive aggressiveness. Or the individual feels like they have to defend themselves. And so it comes across as a microaggression because they want to get ahead of it. It's that defensive instinct. Right. And again, it all goes back down to the culture of the organization. What is tolerated, what isn't, how are things actually addressed? Is there a system in place to talk about things openly without feeling like as if the person who has been impacted by certain words now has to comfort and support the other person. Eleonore Eaves: Right. Erin Patchell: Yeah. I had a really stupid idea the other day when I was thinking I was in the shower, and I was thinking about this in the shower, because this is what I do. I think about work all the time because it's also my hobby. It's also my hobby now anyways. And this is a crazy idea, but I feel like you've done a lot more education in this area than I have. So tell me how bad this idea is on a scale of one to ten, one being not too crazy bad and ten being like, worst idea ever. Aaron, definitely don't ever do that. Don't implement that. Erin Patchell: Don't think about it ever again. Okay, we're going to actually put this out. A safe word. If you hear someone, what if we created, like, a game in our organization, gamify it. If someone says something that is a microaggression or you believe could be a microaggression, you have a safe word. So it pauses the conversation so we can talk about it. Could be like monkey. You know what I mean? Or whatever. Erin Patchell: Is that the stupidest idea you've ever heard? Because I'm just like, how do we all agree to pause the conversation in the moment and just say, hold on, I feel like we need to talk about what you just said, but in a way that's not super confronting and getting people's backs up and super defensive. You know what I mean? Aggressive. But in a way we can actually learn something. Right? Eleonore Eaves: Yeah. I love that in that it brings in a little bit of humor. And as you know, I love anything for a good laugh. Right. I'm here for it. And if it makes a person stop and chuckle, sure. My only fear is then that, well, a couple of things. One would be that the person using that safe word is going to be mocked. Eleonore Eaves: But also, too, does it really still address the issue of the culture of the organization where they feel like they have to use a safe word versus being able to say, hey, you're out of line. Erin Patchell: Yeah. Eleonore Eaves: And just calling it a. And again, you know, looking back at the McKinsey report, the number of times people have to change the way they speak in order to seem softer. Right. We've all done that. Any of us women in leadership positions have had to at times, at least even think about how we're coming across. I mean, I know I've been called a dictator and several other things, which I'm sure not allowed to say on your podcast. Erin Patchell: You're allowed to say anything you want for the record. Eleonore Eaves: But a lot of us do have to take that moment to stop and think about how the other side is perceiving our words. Is it going to resonate? We no longer have to just think about the quality of our data and what we're putting forward, but also to the tone. And so even on the next page on that report, they go into code switching. Yeah. I'm a black woman who definitely has to code switch a lot. I would be lying if I said I don't. Right? Erin Patchell: Yeah. As someone who is ADHD and on the autism spectrum, definitely, I know all about that as well. Like masking right, exactly. Trying to blend in, for sure. That is something that I experienced all the time, and I'm still trying to detangle, and I don't even know where my true self ends and begins. I don't even know who I am. I'm like. I am just an amalgamation. Erin Patchell: All the people that have come before me. I literally don't know. Eleonore Eaves: But, yeah. Erin Patchell: No, I mean, toning down what I say. I don't know if. I think we all have to be political in a certain context. Right? Eleonore Eaves: Absolutely. Erin Patchell: Yeah. What's the difference? Where's the line? Eleonore Eaves: Okay. I would say the line is not just in terms of being political, but sometimes I would really have to change the tone of my voice. You see how I've done that right now? This will be the Eleonore who delivers more of a harder dialogue. Erin Patchell: Okay. Yeah, I don't do that. I don't think I know how. I don't do that. Eleonore Eaves: No. Right? And even here, we're two strong feminists on this podcast. We have our own businesses. We're thriving. And yet how sad is it that even you said you don't even know where you begin and where you end. He's the real Aaron. So if it's that. Erin Patchell: Whoever you want me to be, Eleonore, whoever you want me to. Oh, but we. Can we stop saying that? Eleonore Eaves: Right. Yeah, but you get what I mean. So even for us, if this is something that's normal for us, what must it be like for people who are still working internally within organizations and who depend on that, needing to fit in for their mental security, for their financial security, to feed their kids, to put a roof over their heads, that could only be exhausting and mentally draining. That just makes no sense. And it's not just even a race based thing. Right? So this self shielding behavior that we're talking about, again, going back to the McKinsey report, even women with disabilities, 49% feel they have to tone down what they say to avoid being unlikable? 49%. Can you imagine? Erin Patchell: That's crazy. See, I want to create a company, and I hope that. And this is obviously, like, imperfectly, it's going to happen imperfectly. We're going to do better every day or try to do better every day at doing this. But it's like, create a company where our feelings and our big human emotions are okay. It's okay to say things poorly if the intention is good. Do you know what I mean? You don't have to find the right words for everything. Just say it, even if it sounds bad, if you don't have the right words. Erin Patchell: Just say it. It's better just to try to say something. I don't know. Eleonore Eaves: I would love to see what that world looks like where a person doesn't use that as an excuse for being a horrible human being. Erin Patchell: Yeah. I've had lots of creative conflict in my life and at every organization where that was accepted, it was so much better. It was so much better because we could be ourselves. We could argue, we could say our piece, and then we could come to a solution together. Eleonore Eaves: But I think that's the real point. There is. Is it a creative conflict, or is it more of an abuse of power or a dominating situation? Right. You need to have a certain level of tension and disagreement in order to improve. No one is perfect from the get go. And there are things where, despite how great we might like to believe each of us are, we will consistently keep failing in different aspects of our life. This is just part of the experience of living. And if we don't, then that's also sad that we're not pushing ourselves. Eleonore Eaves: So conflict is okay. It's perfectly fine. But I would say. I would liken it more to, if you have a disagreement with someone you trust, let's say, like a friend, it's fine, because at the end of the day, okay, you might have that disagreement, and it feels horrible at that period of time and all of this, but you know you're still safe. You know the person isn't out to make you, let's say, without a job. Erin Patchell: Yeah. Eleonore Eaves: You trust that you know that the person isn't out to attack you as an individual or looking for ways to see you fail. Just a disagreement. Right. And that's healthy, and that's fine. And I think you raise a great point there, because I think there is a big distinction. I don't think it's healthy either to assume that you'll never have disagreements or conflict. That's where some of the best ideas come from. That's fine. Eleonore Eaves: But it's a matter of, is it still a safe environment to raise those disagreements? Sorry. Or do you feel like you have to keep your mouth shut, even when you see the fire? And because you don't want to be seen as being difficult. Erin Patchell: Yeah, exactly. Like, you should be able to bring your authentic self to work. And if that means that you disagree with someone, that's okay. You can bring that, too. Bring it all with you. Bring all your bags. Eleonore Eaves: 100%. 100%. Right. Erin Patchell: Let's unpack it. Yeah, absolutely. Eleonore Eaves: It's like when you go to your friend and you did something horrible in your relationship, and your friend says, oh, my God, you were such an idiot. All right. Erin Patchell: Yeah. Eleonore Eaves: You need to go back and apologize. Erin Patchell: I think we've all been there. Come on. Eleonore Eaves: Exactly. Right. Yeah. All right. Yeah. I was out of line there. Erin Patchell: Yeah, exactly. All right. We hash that out pretty good. Fourth myth, it is mostly women who want and benefit from flexible work. Reality. Men and women. I know. Eleonore Eaves: Really? Erin Patchell: Men and women see flexibility as a top three employee benefit and critical to their company's success. Eleonore Eaves: Absolutely. Erin Patchell: It's a human thing. I mean, every single family now, who can survive in this economy without two incomes, tell me that. Like, two good incomes, ideally. I don't know anyone who isn't, like, tag teaming with their partner. Eleonore Eaves: Especially if. Erin Patchell: You'Ve got kids, man. There is a dance happening. Eleonore Eaves: Yeah, absolutely. And again, even if a person doesn't have kids for sure, how many men kind of go, oh, right. Yeah. There's another way of doing things. I mean, it just boils people down to a gendered based understanding of what feels right for them, even compared to just who are they? Again, when we look at a lot of these. Right. There are a lot of reasons why a person may wish to work from home. I don't have kids. Eleonore Eaves: It has nothing to do with that. Erin Patchell: No. Eleonore Eaves: But as a type of person who's an individual or independent contributor, oftentimes I just get my best work done when I could put my head down and just work away. Right. Erin Patchell: Focus. Yeah. We all work best wherever we work best. Whenever we work best. Full stop. Eleonore Eaves: Yeah. Erin Patchell: I do think there is an element of, as the complexity of your personal life increases that. It's like the demand for flexibility. I think that may correlate a little bit. Eleonore Eaves: Exactly. Yeah. But isn't it also, too, a little bit funny that when a man wants to be at home and take care of his kids and actually play a part in their lives, we applaud him for that. Isn't that wonderful? He wants to be a present parent. And yet for a woman. No. Erin Patchell: Yeah. And I struggle with it because I stayed at home with my kids for years, and I did consulting off the side of my desk, and I did a bunch of other things, but I try to encourage that for women. Some of my previous employees have come to me and said they are so happy that I was transparent about the fact that I stayed home with my children for several years. Eleonore Eaves: Exactly. Erin Patchell: Three kids. Because it's not known. People don't talk about it. It's almost taboo. Eleonore Eaves: Exactly. And when we look at the reasons why a person wants to work from home. Right. There could be a multitude of reasons why. First of all, 69% of mental health is impacted by your manager for people who have work based stresses. Right. So if you think about that. Yeah. Eleonore Eaves: If the work culture or the organizational culture, if you feel like you're not fitting in or there are other stressors there. Yeah. That's a high percentage of individuals who would probably get a lot of work done or do better work if they don't have that additional stress. Which goes back to the entire report previously. The other three myths. Right. And then again, the term of strong organizational culture keeps coming up, and a lot of people throw it around. But again, it goes back to emotional intelligence. Eleonore Eaves: Right. It goes back to true leadership. And we see constant posts regularly about what is and is not working. Erin Patchell: Yeah. Eleonore Eaves: So back to your first question. What does it take to actually go, right. We understand what works. We understand what doesn't work. And now we're going to actually implement the changes we need to see that suit our organization. That suit our people in order to retain them. Erin Patchell: That suit our people. Can we italicize that? You have to get to know your people. You have to know your people to know what's good for your people. Right? Eleonore Eaves: 100%. Erin Patchell: Well, in every organization is different. You're going to have a mix of different philosophies and desires and everything else. So you can't paint it with a broad stroke. You really have to get to know your people. Eleonore Eaves: Absolutely. Especially for organizations that are massive multinationals and operate in different cities and countries. Each division is going to be completely different. Which makes sense. Erin Patchell: 100%. Eleonore Eaves: Yes. Erin Patchell: There are layers. So many layers. Eleonore Eaves: Right. So it's understanding how your overall structure and strategies align with the people. Erin Patchell: And it's interesting how we usually talk about culture as if it's this one holistic, overarching thing, when really, most of the organizations I work in, they all have a vision. Right? There's an overarching vision. We all know where we're going, where we want to go. We have the same overall desires for the world or whatever it is, social goals, et cetera. But a lot of the time, the culture is very different in different teams. And that's okay. There's nothing wrong with that. Eleonore Eaves: I don't think. Absolutely. Erin Patchell: Yeah. Eleonore Eaves: I completely agree with you. I don't think there's anything wrong with that. Right. Erin Patchell: So how should we conclude this little podcast of ours today, Eleonore? Eleonore Eaves: I mean, I guess a shameless plug for the benefits of coaching to instill better cultural practices within organizations and help them sustain the changes they need to see. Erin Patchell: Conveniently, as the day that we're recording this, Wednesday, November 22, literally, my podcast that I posted this day was about building a coaching culture. So please, yes, 1000 times yes. Building a coaching culture is, I think, learning how to be a coach followed only by being coached. Eleonore Eaves: Yes. Erin Patchell: Followed by coaching your team as a manager, wearing lots of different hats, using some coaching skills. 100%. Yes. Eleonore Eaves: Well, exactly. Right. I mean, I think one problem is a lot of organizations just get reports on what needs to be fixed. Right? That's great. There's definitely a need for that. You need to understand what needs to be fixed. You need to understand people. You need to get the data. Eleonore Eaves: Absolutely. Support that. And then the next step is to do the coaching to ensure that you are able to actually implement those changes. Right. It's that critical next step because obviously what we see time and time and again is at the first little bit of pickup or problem or hurdle. That's the word I'm looking for, hurdle. People naturally go back to what they know because change is difficult. It takes a lot of time and patience and consistency. Eleonore Eaves: This is where the coaching comes in. People know what they need to do. But if it's between meeting a deadline to please a client or doing something different that you're still not 100% comfortable doing, I don't blame the person for leaning in on what they do know how to do. Right. They're still meeting their corporate objectives. That's what they're going to do. So this is where the power of coaching comes in, helping them with those transformations that help them with their whole strategy. Right. Eleonore Eaves: It's not just an operational metrics or making your people feel valued and good. It's both. And both rise at the same time and again. It's that fallacy of believing that there's only one seat at the table for women. There should be. Erin Patchell: Yeah. Eleonore Eaves: And if there isn't, then let's start building the factories to create even more. What did. Erin Patchell: Let's see what McKinsey says. I'm scrolling down in the list here. It says, recommendations for companies tracking outcomes for women's representation. Eleonore Eaves: Yes. Erin Patchell: If you don't have scorecards for all your hr metrics, that's for sure. Empowering managers to become effective leaders. We actually talked about this a little bit on the last podcast about sponsorship, and we didn't touch on that today. Did you want to touch on that? Eleonore Eaves: Yes. I mean, that's another highly critical aspect. Right. Again, we consistently see that women are overly mentored, but not supported with a sponsor. The difference being that a mentor just speaks to you, and again, that sponsor speaks about you in the rooms you're not yet in. So it's a combination of both that is really critically needed. Right. It's about those networks. Eleonore Eaves: And again, this is a benefit of actually going into the office, is that you're building that network, but there are other ways as well to build your network. I mean, I met you at a conference. Right? Simple as that. There are lots of ways to build those human connections, but that's really and truly the most critical part. Erin Patchell: Addressing microaggressions head on. So we talked about culture and how to create a culture where people can say what's on their mind and maybe interject or provide feedback, or if you can't do that, maybe a safe word. I don't know, talk about that offline there, Eleonore. Hash that out. Unlocking the full potential of flexible work. Yes. And fixing the broken rung once and for. Hmm. Erin Patchell: That one might be the biggest challenge out of all of them. Eleonore Eaves: Yeah. But it's so worth it, right? Because, yes, it is probably the hardest one to do, but obviously one of the most important, if you don't have that steady pipeline of talent of individuals and you're not supporting them, then none of the other things matter. Erin Patchell: And making sure there's, like, proper representation within your talent management pipeline. Eleonore Eaves: Absolutely. And I also love that in one of their other lines, they did mention that it does take time. So assuming that there's also this other false belief that, oh, well, we gave this a year and nothing changed, so, yeah, I guess that wasn't a really good approach. Well, it takes time. Right? It takes time. And you need to make sure that even the people doing the changes, the managers, the people leading their teams, have the supports they need. So not just the women, but everyone across the board, so they actually know how to do this work properly. Erin Patchell: Yeah. Eleonore Eaves: And so also, too, no one feels alienated. Right. The whole point of this isn't to make anyone dig in their heels and feel like they're being looked down upon or scrutinized or anything like that. That's not how you build consensus. Right. You want to get everyone to buy into this. You need to make it as part of the core of your new company culture. So to do that, everybody needs to buy in. Eleonore Eaves: Everybody needs to see the benefits to them to hopefully even change any misconceptions about it. Taking away from their hard earned work or from their rights. Erin Patchell: Thank you so much for joining me. Eleonore Eaves: Eleonore, thank you so much. I can't wait to speak with you again. Erin Patchell: It is always a pleasure. Thanks again to the amazing Eleonore Eve for joining us on weirdos in the workplace. This is our 39th episode and going strong. If you'd like to get a hold of Eleonore, if you're interested in coaching or her consulting services, you can find [email protected]. Eavescoaching.com. That's all for today. Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble. San at positivist ca S-I-T-I-V-I-S-T ca or on most social media platforms @positivistgroup, have a beautiful day at work. -- Visit Eleonore Eaves at eavescoaching.com or [email protected]. Connect with Eleonore on LinkedIn at https://www.linkedin.com/in/eleonore-eaves.

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