Erin: Welcome to Weirdos in the workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, passion, transparency and purpose in our world of work and the impact that we can make in our organizations today. And today we have an awesome guest with us, Hanieh Khoshkhou. Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace. Hanieh: Thank you for having me. Erin Patchell: Absolutely. It's our pleasure. And Hanieh is the founder of e-Tree Group, a tech startup focused on custom interactive learning for professional development, onboarding, corporate training and more. She's a lifelong educator and a creator with more than two decades of experience working domestically and internationally. And I got a sneak peek of some of your work and I was very impressed. So I'm really excited today to talk about building a culture of learning and all of the beautiful things that come along with that. [Intro Music] Erin: So tell us about yourself, Hanieh, and a little bit about your company as well. Hanieh: You know, I started off in education. I was teaching in college for a long time in Quebec. I taught at the Cejep level over there, which is the college system. And then from there, I had always wanted to work internationally, so I moved to the Middle East. I was living in Oman, and I was teaching at the teachers college over there, which was wonderful. I got to really expand my knowledge, my overall knowledge, my ability to be able to assimilate to different cultures and teaching abilities. And then once that completed, I came back home to Toronto. I moved to Ottawa. And then I got to a point where I was like, I no longer necessarily want to teach. So I moved into management. I was managing out in Ottawa at a not for profit, which was equally great. Learned quite a bit over there. And then I also got into a space... I got bitten, Erin, by the entrepreneurial bug. And I was like, I want to create something of my own. I want to do something that, what is my passion? What are the things that I haven't done so far? Right? So I got into entrepreneurship simply because it was something that was like, what next? What do I do? Right? What do I do that brings me passion and joy, right? So hence getting into the tech startup with my company and we focus on, again, there's still the realm of learning and development, but now I do it for companies and organizations and whoever's interested. So we customize, like you said, we customize interactive learning and we're trying to really change what training and onboarding and professional development looks like in the corporate or not for profit or government looks like. Erin: That's amazing. What is it that inspires you about your work? Hanieh: I think one thing that I love, and I'm so happy about is that I'm able to bring all my knowledge in. So I don't just use one aspect of my years of accumulation of knowledge, right? Whether it's my education, I got a master's in education specializing in curriculum development. So whether it's that, whether it's my languages, whether it's my interpersonal skills, I get to use so many different aspects of my knowledge which feel so fulfilling to me. Whether it's multitasking, whether it's being able to manage my severe ADHD, but still be able to go through with everything because I have hyper focus and I can do this and I can manage everything, right? So it's like a combination of everything, which I really enjoy. Erin: That's awesome. In our previous conversation, we both have adhd, so we talked about all kinds of things, but one of the things that I remember we both were super passionate about is building accessible learning cultures within organizations. Yeah. So have you seen. Let me repeat this. How have you seen cultural influences...the cultural.... I would call it like a cultural revolution that we're in right now. How is that evolving the way that we build learning cultures in organizations? Hanieh: I think one of the primary examples that I see within that is the wonderful work so many di practitioners are doing being embedded within the learning, right. So something as simple, or it could like something simple, but at the same time powerful when it comes to the images I'm creating for my learning, right. Who am I centering? Right? Who am I representing? How am I being able to show diversity within my work, within the e courses or even presentations or workshops I'm creating, right. That, to me, has been a significant game changer because we are continuously making sure that we are being able to put attention on everyone, to bring the beauty of diversity that we all live through into our work. That, for me, has been a major cultural change. Erin: That's awesome. Yeah, I feel like I've seen a little bit of that as well. It seemed like Dei and accessibility were more siloed in a lot of ways, and then lately it's more like it's being woven through, or I guess folks like yourself are trying. You're trying to weave it through. Everything that we do doesn't matter what the training is, what the competency is like weaving diversity, equity, inclusion, and accessibility practices. It's just becoming more universal, I think, maybe. Hanieh: And as the designers and as the creators, when you're being mindful of that and when you're present, when you're creating these situations or work, it makes such an impact it makes such an impact. Like, I've had folks outreach to me and say, you know that little thing you did, or I was doing a session and I had a little PowerPoint icon and I was talking about families. And the PowerPoint icon family was a typical heteronormative family. And I said, folks, I just want you to know, I know this is very heteronormative. Right. But families come in all different shapes and sizes and looks, and I want you to know that. That's all I said. Right. I just want you to know this is what I've had access to when it comes to icons from this particular. This person outreached to me and said, thank you for acknowledging that. That's all it was. Eh, Erin? It wasn't more than that. It was just saying, hey, I acknowledge that there's more folks out here who are families who don't necessarily look like this. Erin: Absolutely. Hanieh: And that's what it comes down to in my head, it's like you're acknowledging it. That's like the first step. Erin: Are there other changes that you've noticed in the last ten years of the evolution in adult learning? Take me through that. Hanieh: I think more and more folks are realizing the importance of it, the importance of it when it comes to the bottom line of any company organization. How are you building your team members? How are you constantly showing them that not only do you obviously want them to be there to do their job, but you're also giving them the opportunity to grow. Right. So I think more and more companies and organizations are aware of this, and they want to be able to place themselves in a position where they're like, listen, not only can you come on and work with us, but we also have these different learning opportunities. It's become one of those things where it's one of the things that they will outline in their job descriptions, right? They're like, hey, you can learn. We can give you whatever tuition money for it, or we have access to this, or it's a way for companies to recruit great talent. So more and more, it's become a tool for companies to do so. Erin: Okay, cool. Yeah, I can see that as a huge benefit. And I think you're right. And I think the millennial generation, the Gen Z generation particularly, are actually really self motivated to learn. If you ran into a potential client who you felt like didn't have that commitment to learning or didn't understand the value of it, what would you tell them? I'm curious. Hanieh: I would ask them, how are you retaining your employees, other than obviously pay and vacation, how else are you motivating folks to stay with you? How are you evaluating that? When you have your exit interviews with folks, what is their reason for them to leave? Are they growing in their position? Because after a year or two folks have already mastered that specific task or whatever it is that they're doing responsibility. So how are you continuously ensuring your team members to grow? That's huge because it has both short term and long term impacts on the team member. Right. And it direct hit on retention. So those were the questions I'd want to ask in terms of gauging where any company or organization is at. Right. Because a lot of times people will be like, yeah, but people will be like, there's no growth. Well, what does that mean? Growth is for them is, well, am I going to do something else other than this in a year or two? So how do you build the growth? Erin Patchell: Yeah, well, a lot of the companies or ceos, founders that I talk to, I think a lot of them have an interest in learning, but they don't realize that there's a time commitment. Maybe they realize it, but the commitment hasn't been turned into action yet. Right. And so I love the way that you approach learning, though, in terms of like micro learning and using the available technologies because I think that it can create that learning environment without maximizing efficiency though, as well. Talk to me a little bit about that. How is technology impacting corporate learning right now and how do you see it impacting corporate learning in the future? What's the future of elearning? Hanieh: I think, of course we have to touch on AI, right? Like the AI is everywhere, everyone's talking about it. I don't think it's necessarily going to completely. It is obviously transforming everything. And a lot of, for example, tools that I personally use have already started to embed AI within the actual tool itself, which is wonderful. I think the important thing about technology and just continuously evolving is how the user, the person creating it is doing it. What is their viewpoint on it? Are they equally growing with the vast speed that everything else is? How are they interpreting it? Because at the end of the day, no matter how much access we all might have to technology, it's the person who's creating it that will ultimately have the final say as to how it's being distributed. Erin: Right? Hanieh: Did I go off on that one or, I don't know. Did I answer your question correctly, Erin? Erin: I mean, there's no correct way to answer any. With, with the technology and e learning, how do you continue to see this evolving down the think. Hanieh: I think definitely when it comes to accessibility to it, that's a major point with folks. So that just because I might not have access, let's say, to Internet, right. How are my learners being able to engage with it? Just because we have the luxury of we sign in and everything is there, how can we distribute technology to folks who might not necessarily have it? And that's where it's going further, more and more. Right. Making sure, for example, something as simple as we're using Zoom now, in the beginning, it didn't have closed captioning, right? It didn't have closed captioning, but now it does. Right. So it's like making sure that it's being able to serve everyone. That's where it's going. And more and more people, organizations, companies are aware of that. Like, how am I serving everyone? And it's not just like a group of folks who are able bodied or perfectly capable of understanding certain things. I think that's where we're going when it comes to the future of elearning. Erin: Awesome. If you had like a big red easy button or like a magic wand. Hanieh: Yeah. Erin: Is there, like, one thing that you can think of? You'd be like, if I could just make that happen just by snapping my fingers. Is there anything, any solution that you would create Hanieh: When it comes to elearning? Erin: Yeah. Hanieh: When it comes to elearning, I think a lot of times I find I have to go through multiple tools to have a final product. Erin: Okay. Hanieh: Multiple tools. Like, I will edit videos in one place. Sometimes I will edit and take that and put it into another tool where I have my animation. I think being able to kind of do, putting everything together, being able to do all those things in one tool, I love powtoon, for example. Right. That's one of my favorite tools. But I can't get that same animation level in one of my editing tools. I can't. Everything's in there. And with powtoon, I don't get to necessarily edit as extensively as I can with my editing tool. So I think it's just, mind you, it's evolved quite a bit and it's wonderful. I still use it. It's just being able to have everything kind of together. Erin Patchell: Yeah, that would be awesome. Yeah. I can think of other use cases like that where it'd be like, man, it would be so nice if this was just one big solution, or even if it was like an integrated something or other, having better integrations between products would be great, too. From a user experience standpoint, from the experience of the participants going through your elearning, is there anything that you would just be like if we could just make that happen magically? That would be great. Hanieh: I'm trying to sprinkle quite a bit of magic as much as possible. I'm trying much, for example, to always have subtitles available. I'd love to be able to also have the option of English, French, always. You know what I mean? Or any other language that necessary within the region. I'd love to be able to have. We had that discussion about being able to help folks, whether it's hard of... blind. Right. Erin: Vision impairments, hearing impairments. Hanieh:To be able to, again, support on many. I think just being able to do that just to, again, say, like, hey, I see you. I want you to be a part of this, and I want you to equally go through this experience. Erin: Right. Yeah, that is tricky. I've been through quite a lot of elearning myself, and I always imagine someone who is vision impaired going through it and how their experience would not be even remotely the same as mine going through it. It would have to be, like, a totally different experience. And it would be nice to be able to make something that's totally interactive somehow, right? Hanieh: Yeah, for sure.  Erin: Using as many senses as possible or. Hanieh: Just being able to flip through. So let's say if it's hearing impairment, vision or whatever, it's ADHD or dyslexia, whatever it is. Right. Just being able to click on that one particular aspect and then having the whole course switch over to support that person. Right. The integration for that would be, like, a lot. Erin: And right now, that's very complex and very expensive to achieve. Hanieh: Hence having that magic wand. Erin: The magic wand, yeah. Someone needs to develop that easy button. Hanieh: The easy button, yeah. Erin: Maybe we could do that. Why don't we do that? Hanieh: I love it. I love it. Erin: Figure it out. We'll make it happen. Make a new technology. Yes. Awesome. So I still struggle with convincing senior leadership teams to make learning a priority in their organization. Have you found any? Have you developed a really strong business case? Or what do you say to folks who are kind of struggling with this? Their employees are barely able to just get their work done they have no time for. Hanieh: But at the same time, there's this thing of, like. But we also want you to do the learning right off the side of your desk. I have a couple of suggestions for that. I think one would be to actually embed time throughout the person's day that they have time to do so throughout their work day. Right. So it's not necessarily something they have to do after work or on the weekends, because it's not going to get done. It's simply not possible. We only have a certain amount of hours within a workday. Hanieh: And to have that specific amount of time is wonderful. Whether it's like seminars, whether it's like one on one, whether it's for them to go through e courses when they have that specific allotted time, it makes wonders. Like, I have a friend who has that time within her organization. Right. It is amazing. And it encourages continuous learning. Right. What if they were to also. Hanieh: Second option would be, what if they were to incorporate this into their quarterly performance reviews? Erin: Oh, yeah, let's do it done. Hanieh: No, but if it's something that, if they really want this done right, then how are they being accountable for it? Right. Erin: And their managers should be accountable to it, too. Right? Hanieh: Absolutely. So when it's part of that and you can say, hey, I did this many hours, and these are the results. Then again, the accountability piece is behind it, too. And the third option, which I recently was speaking with a client about this, was let's create like a sponsorship program and by sponsor here, meaning you're going beyond performative actions and you're actually sponsoring someone who, you know, has the skills and the abilities. But hey, here's the door that's actually open that you might not necessarily have access to. Right. So you could do this with your senior executives. Right. Hanieh: Sponsor a junior member of your team and work with them. What is that skill that needs to get them from a to b or z or whatever. Right. That significantly changes the whole playing field. Now you have boosted their confidence. Now they're learning from one of the C suite. Wow. It really changes things when. Hanieh: Sorry, like multiple thoughts going. But when folks feel, again, beyond money and time off, when they feel valued, when they feel like there's a sense of strong belonging. Right. This is how you're building your culture, you're building morale. Erin: And I know you preach the benefits of onboarding, and I think that this is. Yeah. And this is something that a lot of organizations don't do well, and a few of them do it really well. Most of them do it poorly. But in terms of onboarding, what do you think the benefits are to culture specifically? Hanieh: We'll stay. You need an employee to stay at least 18 months for you to make your money back. Right. Simply because of the whole recruiting process, what you put into the person, you need at least 18 months to be able to make your money back, right? So if you lose someone before then, you're losing money. That's what it comes down. So it's like, how are you supporting this person? How are you making sure they fit in and feel comfortable with everything we're all going through, what we are all navigating nowadays, it goes beyond just that initial, hey, you can come sit with us at lunchtime. It goes beyond that. What kind of plan have you set up for them? Is there some type of a buddy program? Is there some type of a check in system? How are they constantly made to feel like they belong? Right? How are we doing that? It might seem like trivial or really cheesy, but people, at the end of the day, it's, how are you feeling? Erin: I'd love to talk a little about the project you just told me about right before we started recording. You're launching an e-academy. E-cademy, you called it. Hanieh: Yeah. Erin: Tell me all about it. Hanieh: What's the vision? Erin: The vision. Hanieh: So it's going to be e-Tree Academy. Again, I think with everything going on in the world, being able to have access to content where not only are folks learning really good content and they're acquiring new knowledge, but they can see themselves in the SME, they can relate to the SME. They're like, oh, this is this person who maybe looks like me and has the same sort of lived experiences as me, and I can relate to this person and therefore I'm more engaged and interested to hear what they say. I think the beauty of it is that one thing I'm being very intentional about is the areas that I want to develop the e-courses in. So I have five different pillars that I want to touch. I will most definitely share that with you when it gets launched, but I'm going full force. I have access to awesome SMEs subject matter experts. Erin: That's awesome. Do you also support with synchronous learning, with classroom learning or workshops and things? Hanieh: Yeah. Thank you for bringing that up. Yes, I also lead workshops again, depending on the company or organization, it's very customized to what their needs are. But I work a lot on different power skills, aka soft skills. Erin: I love that you said power skills I like because I call them humanistic skills, but I despise soft skills. Like, come on. Yeah, it's like the hardest thing. Hanieh: And it's always the differentiator between folks who really are able to connect with others. Everyone can acquire the hard skills, right? But it's really these power skills that set you apart, right? Erin: Yeah. Hanieh: So that's why I like being able to call it that. And I do lead workshops on that too. And depending on what the company or organization needs, I meet with them and let's do a little quick needs analysis and go from there. Erin: Awesome. What's your favorite thing to teach? Hanieh: I like talking about emotional intelligence. I love doing public speaking. Like, how do you public speak? People are petrified. And that's like the number one fear, how to do public speaking. Conflict resolution, giving feedback. I'm doing one in a week on that. Yeah, I can do the topics. Erin: Yeah, those are great. And they're so important right now. It's like, yeah, we're trying to build continuous improvement learning cultures. Hanieh: Yes. Erin: These are so important. Hanieh: For sure. Yeah, we're all in it together. Don't forget, when we support one another, we grow with one another. That's my biggest thing in life and everything. And let's do more collaboration versus competition. Let's try to be kind and respectful to each other. Like kind of some of the basics. Kind and respectful. Hanieh: That's where we're at with everything going on. Erin: Oh my gosh, preach. But the basics are so not basic, right? Hanieh: No, it's not. It's literally no longer even basic. Erin: It's like, has it ever been basic? Hanieh: No. And it will always set you apart. You're never alone in everything you're going through. There's always someone outreach. If you need anything, don't isolate yourself. I know it's really hard. Just like saying all the things right now. Right? But don't forget, you're never alone in this. Hanieh: And that when we support one another, we grow with one another. Erin: Awesome. I love that message. Thanks so much for joining me today, Hanieh. Hanieh: Thank you for having me. Erin: Thanks again to Hanieh Khoshkhou, the founder of e-Tree Group, for joining me today. And I think it bears repeating. When we support one another, we grow with one another. If you'd like to get a hold of Hanieh or anybody from the e Tree group for custom e learning solutions, you'll be able to find their email address and website address underneath the podcast script today. That's all for today. Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble.  --- Connect with Hanieh Koshkou at: [email protected]  https://etreegroup.com/

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