Did you know that dads can get postpartum depression just like new mothers can? For new dads it’s called paternal postpartum depression or PPPD. It’s possible to have experienced it and not even realize that’s what you were going through because it isn’t talked about with dads to the extent that it is with moms. But my guest is bringing awareness of this diagnosis and what a dad who might be suffering from PPPD can do about it.My guest is Rachael Schmitz. Rachael is a doctoral student at William Carey University. She has done extensive research on paternal postpartum depression as well as conducting her own qualitative research study and she is here now to bring more awareness to families and the world about PPPD.You can reach out to Rachael with any questions or participate in her study by emailing her at: [email protected] thanks to Zencastr for sponsoring The Fatherhood Challenge. Use my special link https://zen.ai/CWHIjopqUnnp9xKhbWqscGp-61ATMClwZ1R8J5rm824WHQIJesasjKDm-vGxYtYJ to save 30% off your first month of any Zencastr paid plan.-Program Transcript-Did you know that dads can get post-partum depressionjust like new mothers can?For new dads, it's called paternal post-partum depressionor PPPD.It's possible to have experienced itand not even realize that that's what you were going throughbecause it isn't talked about with dadsto the extent that it's talked about with moms.But my guest is here to bring awarenessand to bring us conscious to this diagnosisand what a dad who might be suffering from PPPDcan do about it.It's all gonna be coming here in just a momentso don't go anywhere.- Welcome to the Fatherhood Challenge,a movement to awaken and inspire fathers everywhereto take great pride in their roleand a challenge society to understandhow important fathers are to the stabilityand culture of their family's environment.Now here's your host, Jonathan Guerrero.- Greetings everyone, thank you so much for joining me.My guest is Rachel Schmitz.Rachel is a doctoral student at William Care University.She has done extensive research on paternal postpartum depressionas well as conducting her own qualitative research studyand she is here now to bring more awareness to familiesand the world about PPPD.Rachel, thank you so much for being on the Fatherhood Challenge.- Hi, how are you?- Rachel, why don't we start out by you telling mehow you got involved with studying paternal postpartum depression?What's your own personal story?- So my own personal experiences,I experience postpartum depression with two of my childrenand I work as a RN in obstetricsand so I have a lot of professional experience with it as well.When I started my doctoral studies,I knew that postpartum depression was going to bepart of my dissertation at some point.- So you started with your own personal struggle with your kids?- Yes.- How did it go from there to paternal postpartum depression?What led you to be interested in that?- That's a great question.So there is so much research and studiesthat have been done on maternal postpartum depressionand that really is something that most people generallyare aware of as a condition that can happen after childbirth.There's a lot of names that are given to it,baby blues, different things like that.They just kind of highlight the hormonal changesthat occur after delivery.But as I started to do the researchand started to learn more about father's experiencingor you could say mirroring the symptoms of the mother,there was very little research out there.And as I started to think about it and realizedthat this is something that not only is not talked about,but many mothers and fathers really know nothing about this.And I started to realize this is something that reallyneeds to be highlighted.The fathers play a pivotal role in the familyand ignoring this or not making new fathers awareof something like this that could happenis not only an unfortunate thing to do,but it really sets the family up to have some strugglesbecause of the lack of awarenessand because of the lack of educationfrom as a healthcare professional,I think it's really important that we educate patientson things that potentially could happenand not acknowledging something as significantas depression and the new father seemed to be an areathat really needed to be researched more.- I'll be honest, I hadn't heard of PPPD until last year.So why aren't more people talking about it?- Some of the reasons I think people don't talk about itis the stigmas that go along with mental health.Mental health is a pretty complicated thing.It impacts people in different ways.A lot of fathers may not really feel comfortabletalking about mental health issues.I have found in my research so farthat a lot of the symptoms that men experiencewith postpartum depression can be some of the stereotypical symptomslike we think about with regular depression.So sadness, loss of interest, trouble sleeping, sleeping too much,but in men, they can actually manifest some different symptoms.So some men will verbalize some reckless behavior,some increased aggression.So there is a slightly different manifestationof the depression in men.The other thing is that I think experiencing postpartum depressionfor a new father, for a man is very differentfrom a lot of the societal viewsand a lot of the societal pressure.So men have a, there's kind of an underpinning stereotypical.Men are the providers, they're to be strongand take care of everything.And a lot of those symptoms in depressioncan kind of contradict some of those traditional stereotypes.So that's the other bigger reason I think in additionto the stigma that go with mental health,that men truly struggle with those symptomsbecause it is contradictory to how a lot of men,at least society, pressures them to look at themselves.I wanna dig a little bit deeper and really,or maybe simpler, I wanna talk aboutwhat exactly is paternal postpartum depression?How is it different from just being depressed?And what I mean by that is for someone who doesn't reallyknow what this is, who's hearing about this for the first time,even postpartum depression in a mother,for someone who doesn't know,it makes them scratch their head and think,that doesn't make any sense.You've just had the most joyful experience of your life.There are a lot of people who can't have children,who would give anything to be able to have that experience.What in the world are you depressed about?So this is what I'm trying to speakwhat a lot of people may not say but might be thinking.And so what would you say to those people?- So I think that's a really common misconception.And I will share that that belief systemor those thoughts are shared with new mothers as well,meaning that you have this brand new baby.This is what you wanted to get pregnant,to have this baby.Now the baby is here and you're not very happy.So a lot of that, actually a lot of that beliefand that viewpoint is what causes new mothersto feel really guilty about the symptoms that they havebecause they're trying to reconcile that in their mind,that they are joyful, that the baby is hereand they are happy and they do love the baby,but they can't ignore those symptoms.So for men, I think a lot of it goes backto some of the things that they're strugglingwith as a new father.Some of the things that I've already kind of identifiedin talking with new fathers are just some of the thingsthat they struggle with as new dads.I think most people when they talk about parenthood,they really just kind of focus on the motherand what she goes through.But there can be a lot of trauma for the new fathers.They're kind of brought into the birth experiencewithout a lot of education or without a lot of experienceand that new role can be kind of overwhelming.Obviously it goes without sayingbut having a newborn that can be really demanding,you're sleep deprived, it's exhausting.It can feel like a cycle, you're just wake up,feed the baby, go to work, come home,take care of the baby, go to bed,it kind of feels like the same thing again and again.And a lot of that can kind of cause problemswith that role adjustment.Some of the other issues that I've identifiedso far in the research is the struggleswithin the relationship.So that baby causing a bit of a marital strain,making it a little bit more difficult to communicatewith your spouse, making the communicationor different ways that you handle thingshave to be kind of different.So men and women are very different.They communicate very differently.I may say something to my husbandand he may hear what I said and interpret it a different way.So the other issue really is just the symptoms of depression.Some of those symptoms, again,feeling distance, distracted, pressureto be a good partnerand really feeling like you're being a failure.You don't really know how to help kids.A lot of dads I talk to,they have no experience with childcare prior to being a dadso they don't really know how to help the baby.And that's very frustratingand actually can make them feel as a failure in that new role.So there's a lot of things that kind of go into that role formationand having very little information prior toand then not really feeling very comfortable in that role afterwardscan really make dad struggleand feel really ignored, maybe confusedas they transition to the new role.You go from being an independent personto now you're responsible for a whole nother human being.So it's very stressful.So if you're experiencing any of thisthat we're talking about,these are the warning signsthat you might have paternal postpartum depression, correct?Yes.So some of the typical depression symptomsthat I would say most people are pretty aware of.There are some different things that you'll see in fathers.So maybe some risk taking,maybe just feeling kind of distracted.In other words, just going through the motionsof what you need to dobut not really being present in the moment,not really enjoying that interactionso you're caring for the babybut you're not really enjoying or present in that moment.You're just kind of going through the motions.A lot of that is the depressionand it's unfortunately a barrier for fathers to that role,to embracing their children.Yeah, and I want to, there's something else tooI want to really get intoand I've gotten into this with other episodes and other guestsand I think it's really time to bring this up againfor dads that are listening.And that is there's this stereotypethat mothers have it all together,that they know everything, that they are preparedand everything is just there.It is intuitive, it is somehow just ingrained in their DNAall the way through the birth experienceand after the birth experienceto know what to do,to know how to care for the baby and everything.And what I'm here to tell you to be very blunt aboutis that is a flat out lie.So no, mothers do not have it all figured out.So there's a big similarity there in the anxietyand the worry and the concern the dads have,the feeling of that you're just not prepared enoughthat you don't know enough, that you're not ready.Those are the same emotions that mothers go through.- Yeah, I would agree 100%.And I will say there maybe is a little bit of preparationfor those moms that maybe did baby set as teenagersor maybe had younger siblings that they cared for.There is a little bit of an advantagein that they do know a little bit as far as taking careof the basic needs of the infant.But I will say it kind of goes back to those traditional rolesthat men are supposed to be toughand that is really contradictory to somebodythat's really vulnerable or loving.And it really is a difficult thing for fathersto navigate that when they really don't know what to expect.They're really used to kind of protecting that motherand having that role.And then when you get into a situationlike a complicated emergency deliveryor something like that, that is traumatic.That is traumatic for the mother.It's traumatic for the father.And the fathers are kind of left feeling just emptyinside as far as the experience that they went through.And because of some of those societal rolesthat I think men play, it's difficult for them to reach outand say, "Hey, my mental health is struggling."I'm really having a hard time with this."I'm really upset."I'm having trauma from what I witnessed."Women as being the patient in that scenario,and I know this is a clinical professional.Women's needs are being addressed somewhat in that way,in that the OB staff is addressing the momand they're addressing, they can see that she's scaredand that she's nervous and some of thatis being addressed through the staff.But for dads, they are really put on the outsideof that equation, so to speak, where they are present,however, they're not part of that managementfrom the healthcare perspective.So their scene is just an ancillary part of that.And then when that young family goes home,that mom has had a little bit of interactionwith healthcare staff to assess how she's doingand how she's coping.And the dad is not part of that equation at all.So some of that goes back to the dads feeling somewhat ignoredin the whole dynamic or the whole equation.And some of that, some of those feelings actuallyare a barrier to some of the bonding that takes place.Some of the education that's provided to the dads,at least from my study so far,to say that it's been deficient would really be an understatement.You know, there's been maybe one person that's mentionedabout postpartum depression for menand a lot of dads express that they had no education about it.Some of that translates to dads not feelingthat their role is valuable, which is really sad,because like I said before, they play a crucial rolein that situation.- If the dad was raised himself in a very harsh home,a harsh environment where there was physical abusepresent, where there was a lot of verbal abuse,maybe even sexual abuse that was present, abuse in any form.And that was the environment that he grew up in.There's going to be a lot of anxiety,a lot of negative emotions that could rise up around the birth,a lot of insecurity, a feeling of, you know,why would I be prepared for this, given how I was raisedand how the upbringing that I had.And that can really, that alone can cause a dad to shut downif he's unaware that that's what's happeningand he hasn't done anything to seek out help for that.- Yes, and I would even add to that,that some of the trauma that the young fathershave experienced or witnessed through their emergencyor traumatic birth, some of that trauma translatesto like a PTSD where, you know,their baby spent a little bit of time in the NICUand that beeping monitor sound that is,is heard every moment while that baby is in the NICUcan be a little bit of a trauma trigger for themwhere they hear that and it immediately brings them backto that really difficult situation.And there is a little bit of a compensationor overcompensation for men that may becomefrom a fatherless situationor maybe their fathers were present,but they were very stern, difficult, you know,how you mentioned it.Maybe those fathers don't really know how they wantto be as fathers, but they know they don't wantto be like their father.So they will try to compensate in another extremewhere they're trying to kind of,they don't want to be the father that they were raised by.Some of that contributes to some of that confusionand some of the guilt, some of the shamethat goes with depression because again,that really contradicts that belief systemof how these men are supposed to be very stoicand they're supposed to be able to just manage everythingand control everything and protect their wifeand protect their baby.And at the same time, they're struggling with somethingthat they can't ignore eitherthat's happening within themselves.- Do we know anything about the number of dadswho have been undiagnosed?- So the studies currently show that one in 10 fathershave paternal postpartum depression.I actually believe that it's a lot higher than thatand the reason that I believe that is--- I think so too.- A lot of the fathers that I've talked tohave shared symptoms of postpartum depression,but then when I will discuss my studyand reaching out to them to have a conversation,a lot of those fathers will, I would say ghost me,they don't wanna talk to me.And I think a lot of that comes with the guiltand maybe the stigma of mental health.So again, it's still a very well documented issuewithin mental health that people have a lot of guilt,a lot of shame when it comes to mental health.Some of the fathers have verbalized,you know, they have some guilt expressing some issuesafter the delivery because the focus is typicallyon the mother and they feel like they're takingthe spotlight away from her in some sense.So they don't wanna do that.They recognize the role that she played in the delivery.So they kinda wanna give her that momentto make sure that her needs are met.But there really is the stigma of mental healthand I do believe that it's more than one in 10.I think that it's probably a lot higher than that.But again, men just ignoring those symptoms,maybe not wanting to get the help.Those men are just not, they're not countedbecause they're not seeking help.- How prepared are birth centers,delivery departments and hospitalsand birth-themed care providers at educating mothersand fathers about paternal postpartum depression?- Unfortunately, I would say most, it's abysmal.It's not something that is generally talked aboutbeforehand and when it is mentioned,sometimes during that postpartum stay,it might be mentioned in passing,just some education about it,but it's mentioned in a way that is not really conduciveto men learning.Meaning if you go into the hospital, your wife has a baby.You might be up for 24 to 48 hours yourself,not getting sleep, not really eating well.You're in the hospital with your wife who's having a baby.And then that postpartum stay that one to two day period after,that's not an ideal time to educate somebodywho is sleep deprived, who is not mentally,you could say, really checked in.The time to really do that, I feel,is during that pregnancy period.So you have eight or nine monthswhere you have that captive audienceand they're coming in for the prenatal checksand the mother is coming in to check on herand check on the baby.That really to me is a more ideal timeto kind of bring that father into the educationand start it then.Rachel, if I could have gone backand done both of the birth experiences all over again,do you know what I would have done differentlyor what I would have changed if I could?What's that?I would have had a therapist before the birthand I would have had a therapist, the same therapist,I would have been seeing that same therapist after the birth.That's what I would have done differently.I think that's a great idea.I think that if new fathers had that support,if they had that resource that they could put in place,I think you would see a lot less problems afterward.So there are some studies that have shownthat fathers that are experiencing depressionhave some long term issues with the child,meaning they've done some studieswhere they have evaluated fathersthat screened positive for depressionand followed up with those children at 18 years oldand there are higher rates of mental health issueslike anxiety, depression.There are some things that they've identified as faras knowledge as far as testing, standardized testing,meaning those kids did not score as highin the group that had those fathers that were depressed.And some of that makes a little bit of sensewhen you think about somebody that's depressed,that is present in their child's lifebut is just going through the motions,that that would block some of that interaction,some of that learning that's necessary for that childespecially as you have a brand new childwhose brain is growing and changing every day.So there are some long term studiesthat look at some of the potential issues.And then on a short term basis,I don't know that I'm sure there's been some studiesthat have been done but I would just presumethat if you are having some fighting,arguing, marital issues,probably much higher divorce rate,the other thing that most serious I would sayis that some fathers, as they struggle to adjust to that new role,they question their presence in that family.And in other words, start to think,well maybe it would be easier if I was not here.So some fathers actually do convey suicidal thoughtsjust because of the fact that they don't really seewhere they fit inand they're struggling with attaining that new role.So to them, it's kind of a reasonable jobthat you would say, well, yeah, if I don't fit in hereand I feel like I'm failing at this joband there's so much pressure to do well in this jobbut even though I feel like I'm doing a terrible job,a lot of dads will become suicidaland think to themselves, it might be easier if I'm not here.What should a dad do if he believesthat he's experiencing symptoms or the warning signsof paternal pros part of depression?A couple things.The first thing I would say is talk to your partner about it.I have not talked to anybody so far that has saidwhen they brought this up with their partnerthat their partner was not supportive.So the first thing would be to reach out to your partner,be honest about how you're feelingand let them know that you are really, really struggling.The next thing I would say is reach out to your healthcareprofessional, let them know what you're struggling with,let them know your symptoms.If you reach out to a healthcare professionaland you feel like you are blown offor they're not taking your symptoms seriouslyor you just feel like they're not really hearingwhat you're saying, go to another healthcare professionaljust like therapists.You might find a very good therapistand the two of you might clickand you may feel like they really understand youand they're really helpfulor you may find that you're not really clickingwith that therapist.Go find another therapist.So go find another healthcare professional.There's a lot of issues with mental healthcare in this country.I think most people would agree with that.It's difficult to make an appointment.It's difficult to make any kind of connectionto any therapist.A lot of people fear that they're gonna get blown off.A lot of people really do,we'll say that they were kind of blown off by their therapistor maybe they had a bad experiencewith the provider or the psychiatrist.Mental health is important to your physical health.If your mental health is struggling,that is gonna impact your physical healthand until there's coverage that backs that up,people are gonna struggle.So you could reach out to your EAPand at least try to get those handful of visits in.Those might be enough to get you past that acute phaseand then maybe consider or try to get somebodythat will at least participate with your insuranceand then you pay co-pays.But mental health is just critical to physical health.Rachel, how can listeners follow youto learn more about your work or ask questionsrelated to paternal post-partum depression?I have a website that I can share with you.My school website, if anybody would like to participatein the study, feel free to reach out to me.And I am just happy to be working in mental healthas far as this area.It's something that both personally and professionallyI have experience with.And I'm really, I have two sons and a daughterand I'm just passionate about making surethat they don't face some of these issueswhen they have kids.I'm gonna also put all of the contact informationon the Fatherhood Challenge website.So if you go to thefatherhoodchallenge.com,that's thefatherhoodchallenge.com,go to this episode, look right below the episode descriptionand all of the contact information and linkswill be posted right there for your convenience.And as we close, what is your challenge to dads listening now?My challenge for dads listening now would be to,if you're struggling with symptoms of depression,to reach out, talk to your partner, talk to your friends,talk to your family.The more that we talk about it,the more that we make this part of our everyday conversation,that will help remove a lot of that stigma.And if you are reaching out to somebodyand you perceive that they're not addressingyour concerns adequately,find another provider that will.If you're talking to a therapistand you feel like it's not helping,they don't understand what you're going through.Find another therapist.You may have to find several therapistsbefore you find the one that works for you.But mental health is important.It's not something that you should ignore.It does impact your relationship.It does impact your child.And it impacts you.It impacts your physical health.So it's not something to be ignored.If you don't feel like you're getting the help that you need,continue to advocate for yourself.And don't be afraid to reach out.If you're struggling, it's okay to say that you're strugglingand get the help that you need.Rachel, it has been an honor having youon the Fatherhood Challenge to talk about something so important.Thank you so much for all of the hard workthat you've done towards talking about this issue.The effects of this will be felt for many generationsbecause of what you're doing.So thank you so much.Thank you for what you do.I appreciate what you do as well.Thank you for listening to this episode of The FatherhoodChallenge.If you would like to contact us,listen to other episodes.Find any resource mentioned in this programor find out more information about The Fatherhood Challenge.Please visit thefatherhoodchallenge.com.That's TheFatherhoodChallenge.com.I'd like to pause and thank our proud sponsorof The Fatherhood Challenge, Zincaster.If you've thought about podcasting beforeand realized that you need a lot of different toolsand services, those days are over.With Zincasters all in one podcast production platform,you can create your podcast all in one placeand distribute to Spotify, Apple, and other major destinations.But the reason I personally use and trust themwith the production of this syndicated radio programis their professional broadcast quality sound.There is no better time than now to start your podcastusing Zincaster for all your needs.Go to zincaster.com/pricing and use my code.And you'll get 30% off your first month of any Zincaster paid plan.I want you to have the same easy experiences I dofor all my podcasting and content needs.It's time to share your story.time to share your story..Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/thefatherhoodchallengepodcast/donations

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