Erin: Welcome to Weirdos in the workplace, where we explore how authenticity, transparency, passion and purpose leads to more impactful and visionary. And I'm super, super happy to have Robert Smith here with me today. Say hello, Robert. Robert: Hello, everybody. I'm really pleased to be here. Thank you so much Erin. Erin: Awesome. So, Robert Smith, not that Robert Smith, this Robert Smith is a respected author, creativity professor, founding member of the RGD, which is the registered graphic designers of Canada, owner of Greenmelon, a creative branding agency. And Robert, you have some very impressive clients, including RCMP, the Mint, Warner Brothers, DC Comics, Farm Boy, and you're the author of Frankenstein, condition, and stop looking for zebras. And I was really excited to read this book here, stop looking for zebras. And I think it's amazing. So what are we going to talk about today? Robert: Well, today, I think based on your podcast and the themes that you like to speak about, certainly close to my heart is creativity is a career, and creativity in the workplace is certainly something that we need more and more of these days. But it's harder and harder to define and to really grasp and have confidence. Erin: Yeah, absolutely. All right, well, stay tuned, everybody. All right, we're back. So I'm going to start with what I think of your book, stop looking for zebras, because I read through it and it is a roller coaster. It's a roller coaster. And I really thought by the time I got to the end of it, it felt like a master class in building confidence as a human being. I'm a person who never quite fit in. And so I felt like you were speaking right to my soul. Erin: So someone like me, from someone who's been through it already, how to gain confidence in yourself and that self mastery and that balance that we're all looking for, that's how it felt to me. Robert: Excellent. Yeah. And I'm really glad about that. I mean, certainly as an author, you have intentions on what you want people to take away from the book. But the joy is always hearing the various interpretations over the different elements that spoke to different people. And that's one thing that I really enjoy and one thing that's been lovely about this book is that I am getting different things from different people, which is excellent. And I'm glad that it resonated with you. Certainly it is a roller coaster, and it's not a biography by any means. Robert: It's just observations that I've had throughout my career in the creative industry. And just that realization when I turned 50 that I'm still doing this and I love it. And why because I have seen so many people, colleagues and people that I've worked with and past employees, and that. That really get disenchanted and in some cases, jaded about doing this. And again, I feel so very privileged to be doing this. And as is quoted in the book, after 30 years in the industry, I still get up in the morning energized and excited about what I do. And I want the same for you. Erin: Yeah. And I feel like it's not just for creative or people who would maybe define themselves as creative people or having a creative career. I really feel like there's something for everyone in this book, and it's transferable to basically anyone, especially people, I think, who've kind of felt like they didn't maybe fit or belong or had a little bit of that rebelliousness inside of them. Robert: Absolutely. Again, and you know what? Honestly, it's some of the baggage that we still carry with us. I know for myself, it's been my biggest barrier is high school and the experience I had in high school. And to this day, I can still see it creeping in. And writing a book is a good example of that. I still kind of laugh right now, thinking what my english teachers might think. So we get these perceptions that aren't reality, that I can't possibly write a book. And nothing could be further from the truth, really. Erin: I think that's the rebelliousness in you, though. It's like if someone tells you something that you can't do something, you're going to try to do it, probably 100%. Robert: That's what my career, I think, is pretty much. I've done some pretty crazy things, and they all stem from that. Oh, yeah. Okay, watch me kind of situation. The last quote I have in the book really is something that resonates with me so much, and almost daily is 20 years from now, you'd be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than the things that you did do. And I feel very strongly about that. We all have those moments where we've had an idea or a concept for something, and whether it's a movie story or a book or a product or something, and then inevitably, you're going to see it pop up at some point and think, oh, that was my idea. I totally could have done that. Robert: But we got in our way and didn't, and somebody else did. And that's the difference. Erin: Yeah. How do you get motivated to do something like that? That's so outside your comfort zone. Robert: Yeah. Well, again, part of, as a designer or creative director, I enjoy most is the fact that I'm constantly challenged every client, even though I may have done a winery before or a food product before, each client represents a new opportunity to learn and to dive in. And one thing I found is that when you do your research, when you do your thinking beforehand, the evidence, I'll call it, really presents itself. So there is no such thing as starting from a blank page, because your path is there. And it's just a matter of being observant and seeing those things and pulling out the really salient points or the really interesting things. As the whole point of learning is immersing ourself into something that we don't know about. And in doing that, we've got to simplify it so that we understand it a little bit better. And then the extension of that as a career is then being able to amplify that to an audience. Robert: And that's really what a lot of us, the value we bring is we bring in that naivete or the uncertainty or the unknown to learn. And for me, that's what I love, is that there's always something new and you can get in your way. I mean, a perfect example of that is a winery I'm working with right now, and it's also a functioning farm. They've got tons of animals, like, they've got peacocks, and they've got horses and pigs and all of this stuff, plus this winery. And they're very enamored with their animals because they wander around the tasting room and that, so you can see all them, which is quite fun. But they were all about, we got to have the animals on our wine labels. And I'm like, I'll be damned if I'm putting barn animals, farm animals on a wine. There's no way, right? And that was my own. Robert: I'm putting up a barrier, and guess what? I've got a whole line of wine with them, with animals on it. And it's the best labeling that I've done, and I'm so excited. I'm having so much fun doing it. But I put up my there, right? Erin: Yeah. It's some things that trigger us or challenge us. If we can walk forward through it and push against it and kind of lean into that pressure point or that pain point, it ends up being the most awesome resolution or solution in the end. I used to have a boss who was like, we were constantly butting heads, right? Just like, either too similar or too different in certain ways or whatever. And I always thought, it's so cool how we can just butt heads and constantly be at each other, but then work through it, because we're both like those gritty, resilient type of people. Work through it to the point where we had an aha moment, and all of a sudden we realized that we could both get what we want and create something that was actually way better than either of us could have thought of before. So, yeah, it's really interesting. So I expected humor through this book because you seem kind of funny. Erin: And, I mean, it's. It is very funny, actually. The book is, there's a lot of kind of, like, subtle sarcasm, and you don't take yourself seriously at all. But it was counterpointed or counterbalanced by so much emotion, like being labeled a disruptive child. That's painful. Talking about the complexity of navigating a career, particularly a creative career, and talking about kind of the five stages of grief. You talk about insecurity, you talk about guilt and the roller coaster of emotions when the creative process, the highs and lows, and creating something from nothing. I wasn't expecting so much emotion. Erin: So how did that. I'm curious about your emotional evolution over the years through your career. Robert: Well, I think, again, when you're a designer or writer or even if we go into the fine arts, and that you really are exposing yourself to criticism, and it's become more and more and more as we've moved along and leans quite heavily into the negative a lot of times. And so it's a difficult path, and it's rife with emotion, and you can't go through it and talk about it as a career without involving emotion. I've been teaching for over 20 years, part time college level to third year graduating students. And that's really what I lean into with them, is, okay, you've learned all this stuff, right? Like, you know, illustrator, you know how to layout, you know typography, you know, color theory. This is all cookbook stuff. But what's missing from that is the heart, right? And that's what makes a wonderful meal. It's not just the mechanics. You've got to recognize. Robert: It didn't appear in zebras. But I wrote an article called positively negative. Whole idea of that is you can't understand hot unless you experience cold. You can't experience sour or understand sour until you've experienced sweet. And therefore, in life, you can't experience true joy if you haven't experienced true negativity or sadness. And so, again, I think that's living life in plateaus and not flatlining your way through and that is one thing I talk about in the book, is the idea of being tragically competent. And I think that translates into life, not just a job. But my point with the job was, if you're just showing up and dialing it in, you've become tragically competent. Robert: And some people say, well, competent, that's a good thing, isn't it? Well, no, because that means you're doing the minimum. You are doing what's on the paper, and the rest is, well, that's not in my job description, or you're not putting more into it. And when you spend so many hours just to dial something in, it's tragic. And that's why I call it tragically competent, because life should be more, including a job, more about passion. And like you just said, debate is a good part. Right. And that's bringing passion, standing for a point. And in some cases, I'm designing something for a client, and they're trying to pull me in a different direction. Robert: It's like, okay, the bottom line is my job is to give you what you need, not what you want, and what's going to happen. And I tell my clients this as well. So, look, I'm going to make you uncomfortable. That's my job. Because up till now, you've been comfortable and you've identified that it's not working, so you've hired me. So if I'm not making you uncomfortable, if I'm not taking you into an area of discomfort, then I'm not doing my job and you're wasting your money. Erin: Yeah. I tell my clients something the same similar. It's like my job isn't to make your life easier right now. It's to make you think so that down the road you'll be really proud of whatever we've created. Robert: And that comes down to voice and all of these things. Emotion is really important. And I think as well, again, I'm at an age now where it's about mentoring and it's about passing on of knowledge and things like that. And for me, leaning into those things and being transparent is really important. So there's one part that I still kind of like where I talk about all the awards that I'd won and all the acclaim and articles and books and all of that stuff, but I wouldn't let myself translate that into personal wealth, into money. And not that's what this is about. But when you're talking about a career, another quote, if it's not making money, it's an expensive hobby. But my barriers from high school and that of, well, I'm only this good, I'm not going to go further that I found myself sabotaging. Robert: Whenever that acclaim hit, I'd sabotage it. And it's only later in life that I recognized what I was doing. Erin: So do you embrace the celebrations now? Robert: Absolutely. Erin Patchell: Yeah, absolutely. Robert: And you also have to recognize, too, that sometimes you're going to be your only cheerleader for sure. Right? So you've got to get comfortable with that. You can't wait for other people to give you the accolades or to recognize. And some of the stuff that I've done, I take great pride in. And it did what it needed to do for the client, but I didn't get chocolates or anything sent to me by the client or anything like that. And not that I was expecting it, but it's important to take those moments back and go, I really nailed that with this problem, and I just took it to another level and recognize that in yourself and not wait for other people, for sure. Erin: So you do write a lot about independence, setting boundaries, forging a path. And I think that that's kind of instinctive for a lot of creative people, a lot of people who kind of live a little bit outside of the norms, the normal paths. What you were saying before, I struggled with that, too, was learning how to celebrate, learning that you could be in the spotlight, even just like starting this podcast was like, wildly outside my comfort zone. Like, wildly outside my comfort zone. It was just literally a whim, something that I did one day because it's been something I'd been wanting to do for a long time. Right. Probably similar to when maybe you wrote your first book. I would think you just do it one day. Erin: But the way that I got out of the path was by eventually getting a lot of community around me. And I'm curious what your thoughts are around community and what you think about that. Robert: Community is very important, and it's something, again, I do talk a lot about independence because I feel that so many people out there are losing self identity and not really digging into what makes them unique and offering that outward. And so I think that's something that's really important, something I'm writing right now called becoming 3d or three dimensional, and that's missing in job. I get so many people emailing me and ask me, here's my resume, and here's my website, and it doesn't seem to be working. It's like, because it's a resume and it's a website, you're two dimensional, you're flat you're expected, right? Erin: Yeah. Robert: Yourself three dimensional in some way. What makes you different? So people can look all the way around. It's not just flat again, that comes from community. For me, my community has been very important because they're incredibly supportive and they're a great sounding board. Book that we see now. Stop looking for zebras is the result of not just me writing in a shed somewhere and then publishing it. It's gone through numerous iterations, and the iterations, I think, made it much better because of the feedback and the thoughts. And 100%, the book is infinitely better because of my collaborator, the illustrator shell, in this case. Robert: Right. I'm proud of the book. So in my opinion, it was a good book to start with. But then when Shell got involved, I had a couple of illustrations that I knew specifically what I wanted and I told her and the style, and then she sent them back. Like, these are great. I don't know if I got busy or something happened. I said, anyways, here's this chapter. I need an illustration for it. Robert: And what she came back with, I'm like, I could have never thought that up. And it's brilliant. So from that point on, I think she'd only done about three illustrations for me. From that point on, I just would feed her text, say, you're going, because it just made it so much better. Erin: Yeah, people make you better, for sure. Have you had any leaders or colleagues that you worked with in the past that just changed the trajectory of or give you an aha moment in your life that you can recall that's vivid to you? Robert: Well, I mean, it goes as far back as high school again, just really barely, barely graduating. And I had a guidance counselor who knew that I could draw and listen to the fine arts and said, oh, you should be a graphic designer. I'm like, that's awesome. What's a graphic designer? And so I remember vividly he brought out this book and flipped through and started showing me what graphic design was. And I'm like, this is a job. And he's like, yeah, you get paid to do this. He's like, yeah. And that was a turning point for me. Robert: So moving out of Ottawa, born and raised in Ottawa, but moved out of Ottawa to go to school. And suddenly from a barely passing student to a plus on the president's list and all of those things, wow. I found my calling, but it was because of him. Mr. Bell, if you're out know, guiding. Erin: Me in that, I have a question. Do you think disruption is ever going to go out of style? Robert: I hope not. I don't think it will. It's only been getting more and more and more. And certainly that's just a reaction to the times we live in right now, which is the information age and again, the technology age. With AI and things like that coming in, it's becoming more important to differentiate, to be unique, to stand out in the job market as a company, as a product, as an author. When I wrote Frankenstein, I looked at the self help section at a local bookstore and it was like this massive, massive area of books. Why would you write another book? To fit in this noise, right? But it's because of voice. You may be saying the same thing, but in a tone that resonates with a certain group of people. Robert: So it's no longer the masses, it's more now finding your people or finding your customers or clients people, because you can be relevant to a smaller group and still have a viable business or message. And going with zebras, working with my publisher, they're like, well, we got to niche down because I felt that. I'm glad to hear that you felt that it was not just for designers or whatever. Erin: No, not at all. Robert: That was the hope. But my publisher is like, well, no, but you got to define, otherwise nobody's going to find you. So that's the whole thing with this, is finding that hook, whatever it is, that will connect with people and it's disruption. So sometimes it's provocative, sometimes it's subtle, sometimes it's wacky, sometimes it's witty. It's just knowing the tone. Erin: Yeah, for sure. In terms of the creative careers, there's been quite a bit of disruption with respect to AI or the fear around AI, or people having premonitions around AI, how that's going to turn out. What's your thoughts on all this? Robert: Am I allowed to swear? Erin Patchell: Yes, you can. Robert: AI is basically shit in, shit out. I like to use an example as 3d printing. Okay? If you've got a shitty file 3d printer, you're going to end up with a blob at the end. You start off with the best file and put it through the 3d printer, it's going to come out lovely, but it's still not done. You've got to sand it down, you've got to carve off the rough edges. You got to paint it and polish it right. So really all AA is doing is building in some efficiencies. And for people who think that it's going to replace the creative process or critical thinking, they're mistaken. Robert: What they're going to get out the other end again. If you don't have a concept, an idea at the beginning, it's not going to improve at the end. And that's been true forever. Whether it's drawing again, if you don't have a good idea of what you're painting or an inspiration behind your painting, it's just going to be Walmart art regardless. For me, I think AI is great for agencies and things like that because there's certain things, tasks that it takes over for us, like building personas and doing research and things like that. And even at that, I've done some tests on it and there's one thing in particular. It came back with information that was completely wrong. Erin: Oh, yeah. It can be very creative with the truth. Robert: That's it. Right. And it's the same thing again with Wikipedia. People use it as the truth, the 100% truth. And it's not. Take it with a grain of salt. Erin: Yeah. Do you think it is actually going to end up changing the way jobs are either designed, like creative jobs are designed or valued? Robert: Yeah. And I've already experienced this and that. What we're seeing is people like myself in the creative. And again, it might be writing, it might be, but in the case of design, we're getting involved more at the strategic level now, the executional level, because that's where AI and technology is taking over, is the execution of things. And I'm 100% happy with that because that means I get more time on the strategy, on the creative side of things and then it gets executed. I'm happy to have clients execute things and move them forward as long as it's within the guidelines that I've set. So I think it's a great addition. I'm a huge fan, and it's funny you wouldn't get that reading the book, but I'm a huge fan of technology. Robert: I've had every iPhone generation, I've got Apple all over here. I've got Bluetooth speakers. Like, I love what that brings. I love that I pick up my phone and I can turn on my record player, my speakers, and start a record. Love that. But it doesn't take away from human experiences because ultimately what we do is we're communicating from person to person, human to human. Computers and programs don't understand that. They don't know that. Erin: No. A computer can't replace a human's intuition. Robert: No, exactly. Erin: Yeah. No, not at all. At least not for a long time. Yeah. Definitely longer than I'm going to be around but what would you want to tell younger people who are coming up with AI? They're growing up with AI. We know that AI is going to change jobs. What would you want to tell them about what their mindset going through this? Robert: Yeah. So I think, again, it's a progression. It's a constant learning as you get out of high school into college or university or just finding a path is finding yourself. You can't promote yourself until you know yourself, right? It's up to finding yourself based on what is around you or what other people are seeing. It's what is my voice? What do I know? What is important to me? And then you're able to then be external, but you can't do that until you know yourself. So experience creativity or what you love through others eyes, other practitioners and a myriad, because as you go through that, you'll say, oh, I love how they did that, but I don't agree with that stuff. So you'll take what you love from them and something else, and eventually, as you practice, as you move forward, you'll find your voice. And that's where things really come together is when you find your voice. Robert: But don't lose sight of your hands. Like sketching, playing with play doh, building shit with Lego, all that stuff. That's important. It really, really is. And there's such a push on learning coding and technology and stuff like that, which. But you know, for example, a three year graphic design program, if you spend two and a half years studying technology, the month you graduate, you're out of date because there's been updates, there's been new, and suddenly, like I'm saying, suddenly now AI. So I've got a class last year and the year before who know indesign and illustrator and all these programs inside and out and then suddenly this happens. But if you had spent three years learning mindset, learning thought process, problem solving, improvisational acting, these things, you're going to come out that third year way better off because you can adapt and you can change and you're not so structured, for sure. Erin: Yeah, I completely agree with that. You become a professional problem solver. Yes, that's right. Robert: And you're not stuck. I do get some clients that know, actually quite a few that we need you to come in and fix our website. Like, okay, what happened? Well, I hired a web company and I said, okay. Erin: Oh, yeah, that's your problem. Robert: And there's nothing wrong. I love web company. I work with them. Right. But when they say a website, they go for the deliverable. Well, that company is excellent at making an SEO friendly, functioning website that is quick and all of these wonderful things speak to anybody because that's not the web company's job. So that's where, again, that deeper understanding is really key. Erin: 100%. So what is next for you, sir? Robert: What's next for me? Erin: Are you going to write another book? You said you were writing another book. Robert: I'm going to write a screenplay. I want to do a movie. Erin: Oh, cool. Robert: But that's long term. Actually, what I'm working on right now is a book called three cushions in a blanket. Erin: Three cushions in the blanket. Okay. Tell me why. Robert: For a space to be creative. And it's about how there's so many architects, musicians, writers who have built these sheds or these cabins in the woods, and that they go to to be creative. And you have people who are what I call nomadic creatives, and they go to Starbucks and the library and things like that, but they go away from the house to create. And so I started all off with, remember as kids, all we needed was three cushions and a blanket, and we'd build a fort, and that was our space. We'd bring in a book or a game, sex. And no adults were allowed where there were no rules and we were in charge. And that just changes as we go through, but we lose sight of that. And that's something that I've been very blessed with in creating both my books, is that I've had that, what's called the third space. Erin: Right, right. Robert: We've got home, we've got work, and then we've got the place to be creative, the third space. And so that's what I originally called it, the third space. But then when I suddenly went, oh, my God, we did this as kids. That's much more interesting. Erin: Yeah. And the third space, if we're going to go that far, if it's a fort in your house, the third space can be anywhere, technically, but you have. Robert: To mentally brand it as that. People at work, at their dining room table, struggle because ten or 15 minutes in, they're standing up and they're walking around. And why? Because that space in their mind has been positioned as a place where we eat and we chat, and now it's quiet and there's no food. Your brain doesn't know what to do with that space. Whereas your office in the house, where there's nothing else in there, just close the door, your brain knows what it's supposed to be doing there subliminally. Erin: Right, right. Robert: And that's important. So that's right now. Erin: I love that. Yeah. And create a team, Norm, around that in your family. My kids know that if I'm on the couch and I've got blankets piled up to here all around me, and I've got my computer here and I'm writing, don't talk to me Robert: You're in the zone. Don't talk to me. Erin: Yeah, exactly. Robert: That is my third point on the op. Or a piece of paper that said no, and I taped it to the door, so when I closed it, whatever. No, that's funny. Erin: I'm going to use that one, too. That's really great. Awesome. Thanks for joining me, Robert. Robert: This was wonderful. Thank you so much. It was great. Erin: I feel like we could have kept talking, but try to keep it to 30, 35 minutes if we can. But you'll have to come back maybe and talk about three cushions in a blanket. We'll have to do a part two, definitely. Erin: Thanks again to Robert Smith for joining us on weirdos in the workplace. To sum up this episode, I'm going to quote the last page from Robert's new book, Stop Looking For Zebras. "Well, fellow rabble rousers and malcontents, it's time to get to work. Our time is now. It's not the meek who will inherit the earth. It's the disruptors." And from Robert's favorite quote from Mark Twain, "20 years from now, you'll be more disappointed by the things you didn't do than by the ones you did do." That's all for today. Erin: Stay weird, stay wonderful, and don't stay out of trouble. If you like this episode of Weirdos in the workplace, don't forget to like and subscribe on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform. You can reach us online at positivist, cast, ca, or on most social media platforms at positivist group. Have a beautiful day at work. ---  Find Robert Smith: Think-Smith - https://www.robertbsmith.ca/ Greenmelon Inc. - https://greenmelon.ca/ Amazon: Buy Stop Looking For Zebras

Ver todos los episodios