Growing up with dyslexia and in a multicultural household, Nancy has navigated the challenges of being the 'other', and not fitting into societal norms. Now as an Ottawa-based DEI and employee wellness consultant who empowers marginalized and inferior voices, Nancy Cairns aims to create safe and healthy environments where everyone feels valued in corporate.  If you've been the 'black sheep'  of the herd, then you'll want to listen to this episode as Nancy Cairns addresses the DEI dilemma in corporate ! Stay in Touch with Nancy:  https://ca.linkedin.com/in/nancy-cairns-cwhp-p-8b1503296 Find out more on Nancy and her work: https://holisticworkwellbeing.ca/ https://harbingermoon.ca/   Script: Never considered myself racist, of course, but our systems are racist. This is not a one size fits all process. Neurotypicals versus neurodivergence, right? Because really, DEI, ultimately what we're doing is we're asking people to be self-aware. I'm seeing a lot of folks either like burning out or becoming jaded. Do the best that you can until you know better. Then when you know better, do better. Welcome to Weirdos in the Workplace, the podcast that celebrates authenticity, transparency, passion, and purpose in our world of work. And I am here with the fabulous Nancy Cairns. Welcome to the show. Hi, thank you so much. It's so good to be here. Absolutely. Glad you're here. So for those of you who don't know Nancy yet, glad you're here. So for those of you who don't know Nancy yet, Nancy is an Ottawa-based DEI and employee wellness consultant, a passionate advocate, innovative thinker, and champion for positive change, seeking to empower and amplify marginalized voices. Welcome to the show, Nancy. Thank you so much.  Awesome. So this is Weirdos in the Workplace, right? And it wouldn't be a Weirdos in the Workplace episode if we didn't talk just a little bit about what makes you a little bit different or unique, or why were you drawn to this podcast? Well, I have always felt like a misfit among misfits. You know, growing up, I was diagnosed with dyslexia, which I didn't know until I was well into my 30s, that that actually meant that I was neurodivergent. And that was such a validating experience for me to find out, oh, I'm neurodivergent. I'm not neurotypical. That's why my brain actually does work differently than other people. So I've always felt like I never quite fit in because I viewed things a little bit differently. I also grew up in like a small town, which is a lovely town, love my small town. But I grew up, my mother is Mexican. So that was very, even though I'm, I'm like, I'm clearly white. I grew up kind of being othered a little bit because of growing up with a different culture, being exposed to a different culture. So I've always, I've always felt like I didn't quite fit in. And then, you know, when you, when you feel that sense of, of not fitting in, you kind of like, what's, what's going on with me? What, what am I doing? So you get into all the, like, I did the Myers-Briggs test and turns out I'm an INFJ, which is like only 2% of the population or something like that is an INFJ. So like all of these validating things that tell me that I am just, I, I, I walk to a different beat than, than a lot of the world. And I've learned that that's actually a beautiful gift and to embrace it. But, uh, you know, it took a long time to get here.  Yeah. Well, you definitely are in the right place. You know, we are definitely trying to reclaim the word weirdo because I think that the folks who listen to this podcast for sure. And a lot of the folks who are guests on the podcast definitely feel or have felt othered, felt like outsiders, have kind of a chip on our shoulder a little bit, like a little bit rebellious because of that. So welcome. And you're definitely, you definitely belong here with us. Thank you. Thank you so much. Absolutely. But yeah, I know, I know exactly how you feel about like, you know, feeling like you're an outsider and not really knowing how to fit in. So for real, like it's, it's not an easy way to grow up and it definitely leaves a lasting impression on you. And it's probably why, one of the reasons why we're both kind of doing the work that we do. It's so true. I think because so many of us, we, we want to desperately fit in. So we end up masking and we're not our authentic selves as a result because our authentic selves, we feel like that's going to get rejected. Yeah. So this whole idea of inclusivity is, is very important to me for, for that very reason, because I felt so othered for so long and yeah. yeah well and like you said before people with disabilities people who are neurodivergent have amazing gifts to share with the world that the world would know nothing about you know if we weren't included so and that really sucks yeah it does yeah it does yeah so um I mean that's really part of the the big part of the business case for DI I think is you know it's not just because it's the right thing to do we always hear that it's not just the right thing to do it's also the right thing to do in terms of like the business case. It's the smart thing to do, right? What do you think about that when you hear that?  Oh, I absolutely agree. It's because you're able to tap into workforces like everyone has their skill sets, right? So by having this inclusive, instead of trying to fit everyone into the same box, by having a more inclusive perspective, it allows people the space to bring their best foot forward. And as a result of that, you see more innovation, you see more productivity, you see more engagement. Like if you just think about in your own life, when you're in a situation where you feel a sense of belonging, where you feel really valued, how do you react in those situations? Do you feel like you really want to bring your best? You really want to contribute in a positive way because you feel valued. You feel a part of something, right?  Versus when you're in a situation where you feel like you have to speak a certain way, you can only act a certain way. You're, there's a lot of fear, you know, about, oh, I don't want to, I don't want to say this. I don't want to do that. And so you don't have that space to bring all of the beautiful gifts that you have inside of you as a result. So, so it's this untapped resource that really needs to, I believe it's going to be the future. It's going to bring all organizations into the future if they really start to tap into the humanity of all of us and understanding our humanity and letting us use our gifts together. I think like some people, I sometimes sometimes think like you know we we always lately at least we've been dividing it like neurotypicals versus neurodivergence right I don't know that it I don't know that I prescribe to that you know that binary model really I do feel like some of us are better able to cope with like our modern reality than other people. But this can only benefit everyone, you know, if we take this kind of approach. I think.  Yeah, absolutely. And not just talking about like neurotypicals and, and, you know, like just all of the, like the different know like just all of the like the different intersectionalities all of the different lived experiences the different cultures you know we live in a world now where you can hop on a plane and you can you can see so much of the world um you can live in different countries it's just it's so it's so beautiful and yet we're still trying to force people to act a certain way instead of saying oh what what what kind of lived experience what kind of wonderful um insights can you bring from your perspective from your lens instead we're like it's this very hierarch, this is the way that we have to do things and just toe the line. Right. And then people, people don't like they get just, I think it's just natural. You, you don't want to engage in that, you know, you're just like, okay, I'm just here to get a paycheck. Yeah. I'm just going to do my job, like what's on paper and that's it. You know, there's no curiosity. There's no, you know, freedom to explore. So what's the point? Yeah. Curiosity. That's a, that's a brilliant way of putting it. Having curiosity about, okay, this is something and this is great. How can we make it even better? What can we do to you know that's how the innovation happens is those people coming with the ideas how can we make things even better and let's all work together let's collaborate let's bring different ideas to the table because if everyone's sitting around a table with the same idea you're just gonna get yeah you know the same product service over and over again so i i talked to a lot of folks who are like dei practitioners di consultants or have lived experience um intersectional experience as part of a marginalized group and who are you know working in their various ways to try to make this sort of culture well trans cultural transformation in organizations um and something that I've noticed that we talked about before Nancy was that I I'm seeing a lot of folks either like burning out or becoming jaded or like feeling like they're pushing a boulder up the hill and like not sure how long they can like stick it out for, you know.  I just wonder, you know, I know this isn't like a utopian dream, you know, that we're talking about here. I talk about it a lot as well in the previous season. I've talked about it quite a bit, kind of this idea of like building learning cultures, building diverse, you know, coaching cultures or learning cultures. building diverse, you know, coaching cultures or learning cultures. So I do think it can happen. And I've seen it happen. It's just so very rare. And oftentimes, it's like a micro culture in an organization, not kind of the overall culture in an organization. So it just feels like we're putting so much energy and time and money into these DEI strategies. And it feels like it's like we're throwing, you know, what's like, I don't know what the metaphor, I'm really bad with metaphors. Anyways, some metaphor about like, you know, just like throwing money in a black hole, basically, you know. Why do I feel that way? If you can put some words into it? Well, I think, I think there's a, there's multiple factors to this. Um, I think it's an understanding, like a true understanding of, um, the benefits of DEI. I, I think that sometimes leadership, they're very focused on the operations, the day-to-day operations. There might be like some time scarcity. So it's like, we don't have time for this. Because really what we're talking about is like a culture change. And, you know, that might include like changing some systems, changing the way things are done. And that takes time and that takes energy, that takes resources. And when there's this feeling of time scarcity, when there's this feeling of, okay, but I'm trying to keep, keep things afloat, keep the operations afloat. Um, DEI gets pushed to the back burner or it's not done in that like daily habit, embodying it as part of your day-to-day life. Um, and, and that really, in my opinion, that needs to come, that really speaks to like leadership. Leadership really needs to understand and model like the DEI practices, the, the strategies, they have to really just live, live them. And then that way, when they see, when the employees see their leaders, leadership are truly engaged and truly dedicated to diversity, equity, and inclusion, that's when they'll start to feel safe to, okay, okay, I can make some time for this. This is important. This will lead to positive things for me, if I actually embrace what we're talking about, instead of, well, you just need to do this training, this mandatory training by the end of the year. It's like, no, no, no. Like our leadership are actually talking, walking and talking these practices every day as part of their, the way that they run their shops. So employees feel empowered to embrace it as well. Totally. Yeah.  Do you think it's worthwhile spending a lot of money on DEI initiatives if the senior leadership in the organization isn't like fully bought on, bought in? Honestly? Yeah. No, I don't. No, I think that, that the time and, and the time and money should be going towards coaching, should be going towards training, should be going towards having leadership change their, the way that they think to more of a like servant leadership style, where they're looking at themselves as I am the cultivator of my employees. And then once they're in that mind frame, once they get that, then the next step I think is DEI. But until leadership really understands the importance of their people, it's like throwing money in a black hole yeah in a black hole whatever yeah exactly yeah okay yeah no I that tracks for sure that tracks and I think that is one of the reasons probably why a lot of DEI practitioners are just so frustrated and feeling like they've been banging their heads against the wall and, you know, starting to, I'm starting to see burnout. I'm starting to, like I said, see people become jaded with diversity, equity, inclusion, just I'm hearing from DEI practitioners. I'm so tired of talking about DEI. Like I'm so tired of it. And that's a bit, it's, it's extremely sad because this is what they're passionate about. Right. And they believe in it and we know it's legitimate, but it's, it's so hard out there right now. It is tough because really DEI, ultimately what we're doing is we're asking people to be self-aware. We're asking people to reflect on themselves. Like some of the, some of the first training that we talk about is like unconscious bias, right? Like understanding unconscious bias and, and, and that can be difficult, you know, especially when you're at capacity yourself to take a, to take a moment, to take a step back, to be self-reflective and to also show empathy for somebody else and their situation when maybe you don't have that lived experience.  Like that's asking a lot. So that's why I think people can feel like they're pushing a boulder up a hill is because what we're asking people to do on an individual basis is to to to actually self-reflect to become self-aware oh maybe some unconscious bias is happening here and to also give themselves the grace to go through that learning process or that unlearning process right and that can be that can bring up some feelings of guilt, some feelings of shame. Like I know I experienced that when I went through my own unpacking of internalized misogyny, you know, I went through my own unpacking of, you know, unconscious bias and, and the racism that just, I, I never considered myself racist, of course, but our systems are racist. Right. So I'm starting to recognize that and to take ownership of like how I can be anti-racist and taking the next step, like that takes work, that takes energy. And, and I think that's why it's like, it's tough. So again, like going back to what I was saying, it's important that leadership and we have to remember to leadership, they're humans, they're also human, they're dealing with their own stuff, right? So like, as the consultants, we're the ones that we have to create the space, the safe space for them to work through it and get them there so that they can create the safe spaces for their employees and really bring that culture change around, you know? Yeah. How do you know when a leader, sorry, continue. No, no, no, go ahead. I was going to say, how do you know when a leader is like ready to start this work? Or do you know when a leader is ready to start this work? Or do you know? I think just through conversation. I think it's possible to make a human connection, because really that's what it is. We're all human and seeing each other's humanity and teaching leaders to see their employees as humans too and see their humanity. leaders to see their employees as humans too and see their humanity. So by giving them that experience, we can hopefully help bring them along to that as well. I use the example quite often about when it comes to accessibility, for example. I, of course, love love see the importance of accessibility but I didn't get it I didn't understand it okay till I was a mother on maternity leave with a stroller and a new baby trying to get through the world trying to see like oh oh there's only stairs here where's the ramp you know that's when I truly even though I had the empathy and the compassion for like, yes, we need this. We need, we need accessible infrastructure. I didn't understand it until I lived it. Right. So once, so tapping into that, to people's lived experiences, and that's something that's very independent. So that's why the burnout happens because it's just such a, this is not a one size fits all process. This is something you have to meet people where they're at. Right. And, and then go from there. Yeah. I mean, it doesn't help that it's like, in order to become a DEI practitioner, that role itself comes with an enormous amount of self-awareness and requirement for context, you know, so you're constantly seeking new perspective, assimilating new perspectives, right. Trying to learn as much as you can about as many different, you know, people's experience, lived experiences as possible, so that you can try to advocate on their behalf as well and integrate that knowledge back into the system. And so just that in itself seems like an enormous amount of work. And then to do that, and then have your efforts not being really appreciated well, you know, and not, you know, feeling like you're really making the impact that you know you could make. That has to be difficult. Yeah, absolutely. Well, I mean, what you're doing in a lot of these cases when you're coming into these environments is these are not inclusive environments. They don't have these, right? So you are having the same experience as their employees are having basically, right? So you're having to overcome that. But the thing is that they've hired you on to do that. And maybe that's just a gentle reminder of you hired me to do this. So with me, like, let's work together. We both want to obtain the same goal here. Yeah. But that's the really hard part because you're dealing with these environments that aren't necessarily uh very safe psychologically safe inclusive diverse equitable work environment you know that's what they brought you in was to support with that creating that doing that work so it's almost like um it and that's why it's so tough I think it's almost it's nice when you're in a work environment where it's already that it's already like that, right. It's psychologically safe work environment, um, where the boss is like a servant leader. It's, it's amazing. You can, you feel like you can really thrive, but when you're, when you're a consultant, you're not in that environment necessarily or they're just like at the very beginnings of that and they still need their hand held a little bit to get them further along the road or you're probably unpacking all kinds of trust issues all kinds of you know probably um trauma in the workplace as well you know there's there's a lot to unpack when you start to work with these organizations. I'm not a DEI practitioner, but I can see it from other angles that I went in, you know, other areas where I work with companies. Yeah. It's, it's the wild West for sure. Yeah. Yeah. How do people keep themselves? How do you people like yourself, like, how do you keep yourself healthy through the process? How do you like for the longterm, like you want to be a DEI practitioner, you want to, um, you know, you want to be doing this for a long time, hopefully. How do you keep yourself healthy and motivated? Well, one thing is to learn not to take things personally, to kind of put up a boundary. Even if like you envision a golden bubble around yourself, which I know sounds so woo-woo, but it works. Like just envision yourself in this bubble where nothing can actually touch you. And just know, again, with that self-awareness piece, because we're so self-aware, a lot of times you can recognize like, oh, they're projecting. This is, this is actually their, you know, their thing. So to not take it home with you and to take it personal and to ruminate on it. And if you do start ruminating on things, because it's natural to do that, especially when it's something that might be stressful or hurtful, you know, that's just part of being human. Yeah. To do grounding, grounding type exercises, journaling. I know I'm not a therapist in any way, but I am a huge advocate for journaling, journaling out how you're feeling, like what, what happened if it's one particular situation that maybe happened, like write it all down. And then you can go back to it, reflect on it. Or if you're like really ticked off, you can rip it up, you know, like physically do something to get rid of those horrible feelings that you might be having um so those are some those are some tips and then for grounding i mean you could you could go on google and find all sorts of grounding techniques but one of my favorites is i'm actually using it right now, because I'm a little bit nervous, I have just something to help me ground that I'm that I'm rubbing. So if you're in a situation where you're feeling stressed to just have something, put it in your hand and, you know, and just focus on that and focus on your breathing. That can help bring you back and be mindful, you know? So yeah, grounding techniques, journaling, like all of the therapy things, basically, all those things you read about in self-help books and all of that, that really helps with keeping that energy, like protecting your energy, really protecting yourself and protecting your energy not letting them get to you not letting them get you down you know yeah don't let the man get you down guys yeah stick it to the man um no i think that's, that is helpful. Uh, and then the motivation to keep going, like, what do you think about that? Well, I think that it's a, it's probably a good idea for you to have a little strategic session with yourself. Like that's what we do for a living. A lot of times figure out what your why is, what's your why, why am I doing this? Write it down. out what your why is what's it what am I doing this write it down and then if you're feeling like why this is why am I doing this I should just give up go back to it and look at this is why I'm doing this is that enough is that still enough yeah and if not know, you have to take care of yourself. Yeah. Excuse me. Totally. All good. Um, yes, you do need to take care of yourself first for sure. And I think taking breaks is okay. And I think having diversified work is okay too. Like maybe it would just be too much to do like a hundred percent DEI consulting for some people. That's, that's okay. Like do, do, you know know you can have two side hustles there's two hustles two full-time muscles yeah absolutely that's actually that's a great great idea great advice yeah or um or it doesn't even have to be a side hustle could be a hobby like just take some time and do that hobby that makes you happy yeah so that you don't burn yourself out yeah yeah and take breaks yeah take breaks for sure breaks are super important sometimes if I've gotten all my stuff done I let myself play Zelda on my um Nintendo Switch for like 20 or 30 minutes nice my break time yeah how about? What's your favorite break thing? I go for a walk. I like to go for a lunchtime walk. And I block off my schedule. Like sometimes you can't help it. You have to, sometimes you have to have a lunchtime meeting. But I really try and respect that time. That's my self-care time. That's my time to reset. So lunchtime, I go for a little 15, 20 minute walk at lunch. And then I do what I call my meditation nap. Oh, cool. Tell me more. minute, 10 minute meditations on it. And I found one that I really love in particular. And it's like, it's a meditation nap and it puts you into a trance. So it's just like this 10 minute refresher nap. And it just gives me energy for the after, like to get through the afternoon. Oh, I think that sounds like a great idea. I love it. I'm going to have to Google that the meditation nap. Yes, please. I might do that right away after, after this recording session, I might do that. That sounds fun. It's so funny now that I'm like an old lady that I like, Ooh, sleeping is the best time of my day. It really, but it really but it really is it's so you know when we're talking about self-care like getting enough sleep is so important for your like for your well-being overall is getting enough sleep so that's another like just tip overall make sure you're getting enough sleep actually yeah like you're right a lot of it comes back to like are you sleeping are you eating properly are you hydrating are you getting some exercise like and if you're doing those four things then you know hopefully you're on the right track at least right yeah yeah exactly and if you're going through like a rough patch give yourself grace like don't be too hard on yourself but try and make that like your your constant you know like that's your regular that's what you go back to right yeah and don't let one difficult client yeah don't let one difficult client get you down you know because there are lots of difficult clients out there yeah sure yeah don't give them that power over you right don't don't give don't give other people too much power over your own well-being you have to you have to again not take it personally and just that energy out. Right. Yeah. Exactly. It's easier said than done, but like the, I think usually the first thing that happens before you find the answer is you ask the question, right? So if you want to figure out how to, you know, separate yourself from that emotion or whatever, from that energy, you have to ask the question, how do I separate myself from that energy? So yeah, well, it's true. I think it's been true for me. We'll put it that way. So in our previous conversation, we started talking about like how DEI can be quite performative sometimes for a lot of organizations. And sometimes even folks go so far as to bring DEI practitioners into their organizations and it just becomes this performative sort of event that happens. And I know that that gets people down because they are not making the impact like they wish they would. So how do we know if a client, if we think a client, if there's like red flags, how would you, how would you know whether you thought someone was being performative or whether they were serious? If they're willing to do the work or not, you know, the very first steps are, are getting a baseline, checking in with employees and stuff so if they're not interested in working with employees and getting their feedback about how they're feeling um and they just want you to come up with a strategy right like yeah just put together a strategy for us and we'll implement it like no no no this is something that has to be co-designed. There has to be buy-in from all players, like leadership, HR needs to be there. If it's unionized environment, union needs to be there. And of course, employees, frontline staff, you know, everyone needs to be at the table to start building this, this culture of diversity, equity, and inclusion to create that sense of belonging. Everyone needs to be part of that conversation. So if there's a client that's, that's not interested in doing that and just wants you to like give them some sort of template, then that's, to me, that's very, that's performative. They don't actually want to do the work. They just want to check mark DEI off their little strategic list for the year or whatever. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And similarly, probably with like the DEI training, you know, the, like you said, like the yearly compliance training or what it's named compliance training, but the yearly, the training that they, you know, they might, they might provide to their employees. Yeah.  And then are they taking it themselves? Like it's leadership also taking this mandatory training or are they just getting their employees to do it? You know, like they also have to be attending these and, and it would be great if they're in the same meetings as their employees. Right. Oh yeah. Again, they're modeling that, that behavior, that, that embracing of this culture. Yeah. Okay. So let's put a little checklist together since leaders love checklists. Okay. If you're a leader in an organization and you want to build DEI practices, you want to build DEI practices, inclusionary practices within your organization, because you know that like in theory, at least it should help with performance. It should help with retention, help with the bottom line and the top line. What do we need to tell them to do? What do you absolutely need to do? Obviously modeling you mentioned so modeling the behaviors which behaviors specifically nancy um the including diversity equity inclusion lenses to everything that they're doing on a daily basis so in team meetings you know being very inclusive. Do do staff feel like they can speak up? Do they do they feel safe to speak up? Is everyone's opinion? Does it seem like it matters in meetings? they have? Like, are they, are they trying to hire more diverse candidates or when it comes to going up the ladder, you know, I've heard feedback before about the importance of seeing somebody that looks like them in leadership, right? So trying to build that up so that people feel like they have an opportunity to grow. And here's an example, a very specific example that really changed in terms of wellness, really changed my perspective. I came from a very toxic work environment where it was like 24 seven, go, go, go. You ate lunch at your desk, you know, if you ate lunch at all. And then I moved into a new environment that definitely was very diversity, equity, inclusion, employee wellness type of work environment. And my boss, my direct boss came by my office and I was eating lunch at my desk because that's, that's what it was normal for me. And they said, Nancy, go take your, go take your lunch. It's on shower. Go take your lunch. Like stop right now and go take your lunch. I'm going to, I'm taking my lunch too right now. So you go, go take your lunch. And that like getting that permission by, by my boss to actually go leave my desk, take my lunch and to see that they were actually like leaving the building and going and taking their lunch as well. That was so impactful. Right. So just like something that kind of, that's what I mean when I say modeling that behavior is, you know, taking your lunch, taking your vacation, not emailing after hours. And you know what? I understand that sometimes that's what happens with with management, like with leadership. But then if that's the case, don't send the email like after hours. Schedule it so that it goes during work hours so that i've also seen where like where there's like a little tag added added at the end i don't know if you know that one where it's like um this is the time that works for me but you answer when it works for you kind of thing yeah Yeah. Which, which is great too. I, in my opinion, I think it's better to schedule it because people are still getting that, that message on their phone from their boss and they're looking at it. Right. So just don't disrupt them at all after work hours. So like, that's, that's the kind of modeling of behavior. Recognize being vulnerable in front of their employees. You know, that's another big one, like showing their own humanity, um, admitting like, I don't actually know what the answer is here, or I made a mistake, you know, we made a mistake and that's on me. Like that, that's all the type of modeling of behavior, um, that creates that trust, building that trust, like you were talking about earlier, how you're going into places where maybe the trust has been broken. All of that, I think, helps build that trust by modeling that behavior, by seeing that action of your leadership doing that kind of stuff. Totally. Yes. And that is literally what leading by example means. And it's interesting how few people do that well like it it feels like like what you just did like creating a list of actual behaviors like in scenarios this is what people need to see it's like and then and then building that like discipline right to actually implement it regularly and consistently is difficult. Like I remember we worked with one team a few years ago and they did this whole culture. Well, they want to do this whole like team building, cultural transformation thing, right? And one of the things was, you know, we want to take Fridays off in the summer, but the problem is leadership team always ends up working and everyone else kind of knows that because they just weren't disciplined or they didn't have the processes, the systems to be able to like, you know, take the Friday off. So it was like, nothing, it's not going to work, you know, like you want everyone to have Friday off. Well, guess what? Nobody's going to take Friday off. If they know that the leadership team is working, it's just going to be, it's like a trickle down, right? The leadership team is working Friday.  And then all of a sudden, like, because they're sending emails, the manager is going to start checking emails and they're going to start working Fridays. And then everyone else is going to follow suit because it's like, you know, the person who's not doing it then is sort of on the outside, right? The person who's actually implementing, like they're like following, oh no, we were supposed to have Friday off. Just following, you know, they're going to end up being the one on the outside. So all that to say, yeah, lead by example. Yeah. And I think you've brought up a really good point as well around and planning for it, having the proper cover off set up so that this is something that can actually happen so that you're implementing it and you're implementing it well. So instead of just saying, okay, we're going to just start taking Fridays off. Well, how are we going to do that? How are we going? This is the goal. We want to take Fridays off. Let's chunk that out. What do we need to do in order to achieve this goal altogether? And that, that piece can sometimes be missing. And then it, you know, and then it looks bad for all DEI initiatives because they're not being implemented in a thoughtful way. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. You know, something like a, like a four day work week is simple in, in some ways, you know, because it's either you're either, either you have to work more hours during the rest of the week, or you have to adjust amount of work you know there's really no other way to go about it um but yeah it's um it's interesting so uh I know we both want to like kind of like burn it down and rebuild it what are you doing to help shake things up this year me personally yeah what are you doing what am I doing what am I doing to burn it all down um burn it all down but you know let's say shake it up well you know I I think whenever I'm I'm working with anyone that's the attitude that I'm taking. You know, I, I think, thankfully, I'm in a position where I can be discerning about which clients I want to work with.  So if, if I don't see that they actually want to do that change, then I'm not going to put my time and energy and my skills towards that. But again, not everyone has that opportunity. Right. And I think just, I've been really educating myself as much as possible about everything that I possibly can in terms of, you know, all the different, when it comes to intersectionality, all the different identities you know, all the different, when it comes to intersectionality, all the different identities, so that I can bring a better understanding when I'm coming to the table and I'm supporting others. It's hard for me to support others when I don't necessarily understand things. So the way that I'm trying to support with creating new systems is like understanding exactly how these systems are hurting marginalized communities. So educating myself, you have to know that there's an issue, right, before you can fix it. So by being able to recognize what the issues are, hopefully I can go in and help support with doing that fixing. Yeah, that's awesome. How about you? How am I shaking things up? Well, we have the train to help project, of course. And that is our technology membership platforms. It's a membership platform, software membership platform for retail businesses to help them become more inclusive to people with disabilities. And our pilot starts in August and then we're going live in October, November. And it's, yeah, it's a lot, but it's going to be very, very cool. So we're really serving sort of two underrepresented groups in that not a lot of people work directly with retailers and we're serving people with disabilities. So we're, you know, it's pretty cool. That's amazing. That's very exciting. Thank you. And from like the research that I've been doing, when employees have access to resources like that, it can make a huge difference in terms of their engagement, in terms of their wellness altogether. That's incredible. Congratulations. I hope it goes well oh yeah so far it's it's been really interesting it's funny how like people who get it really get it and then people who've never have don't have any lived experience with disabilities whatsoever like no friends or family in them or themselves don't get it at all like and this is where we start to roll the ball up the boulder uphill right yeah anyway yeah and it speaks to what we were talking about earlier with it's that lived experience and asking people to see the humanity in others and it's very it's very difficult for people you know we're all we're all living our lives we're all in our own bubbles dealing with our own problems and uh you know and asking people to go outside of that can be can be hard can be tricky and um yeah and it's something that we have to do like societally which is why we need to burn it all down so that we're all you know taught to be more compassionate to be more empathetic towards each other to see each other's humanity and value each other's humanity instead of um you know in historically there's been this belief of like superiority based on your race or based on whether you have money or not or you know like your health yeah your beauty yeah exactly exactly um all those different identities again on that wheel of power and influence um so that's like now i'm really dreaming of a utopia. I know, I know. Asking, you know, for everyone to see each other's humanity, but hopefully one day. You know what? I am raising three teenagers. I have 19, 17 and 15 year old kids. And I have a lot of hope for that generation they're pretty cool you know and they really do I do think that they're they've got a lot of built-in empathy that some I mean obviously I don't know all of them but from the folks that I have seen I'm very impressed with I think they're going to be good leaders that's amazing that. That gives me hope. You've got to have hope because if you don't have hope, then why even get out of bed? What's the point? Lay down forever. Thank you. That's really, that's good to hear. That's amazing. It's been really nice to have you on the podcast. I really appreciate this conversation. So thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much for having me. Yeah. Is there anything, a final little thought maybe that you have for the folks listening? Yes. Yes. Okay. So I did, I picked out a quote. I'm I'm a little bit nervous so I'm gonna put it right here in front of me and try and read it out so this is uh by Maya Angelou who I absolutely adore incredible um I also am like I have a communications background, as I mentioned, and I love to write. And I just think she's a brilliant writer and so insightful and so strong and amazing and an inspiration. So this is a quote from her and it says, do the best that you can until you know better than when you know better, do better. And I think that really speaks to diversity, equity, and inclusion, you know, and giving yourself that grace as you're going through that, that learning and that understanding. And then once you, once you gain that learning and that understanding, then do better. Yeah. And then if we all just do that, the world would be like a happy rainbow sunshine place we would imagine all the people you know yeah i love that oh well thank you so much Nancy we'll we'll chat soon we'll have you back on the podcast maybe next year how does that sound awesome great thank you Don't forget to stay weird stay wonderful and don't stay out of trouble.

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