https://substack.com/@thebigbookprojectIn this episode of The Big Book Project, Lori sits down with Brad Costa, sales representative for W.W. Norton and an extraordinary reader, to discuss Jonathan Littell’s The Kindly Ones.Brad brings a unique perspective as someone who worked in library archives with Holocaust materials, offering profound insights into the novel’s detailed depiction of bureaucratic evil, moral ambiguity, and the unsettling psychology of its narrator, Max.Together, Lori and Brad explore the interplay between history and fiction, the coldness of administrative genocide, and whether Max’s intellectual rationalizations make him more or less culpable for his actions. They also dive into the value (and discomfort) of reading books that challenge us, the novel’s allusions to Greek tragedy, and what readers might anticipate as the story heads toward its conclusion.If you’ve struggled to process The Kindly Ones, this thoughtful and wide-ranging conversation will give you fresh context for one of the most challenging—and important—novels of the 21st century.Episode Highlights📚 Brad’s archival perspective: Working with Holocaust materials shaped his response to Littell’s narrative.🧠 Max’s moral ambiguity: Is it worse to be a true believer in evil or a cold bureaucrat?⚖️ Greek tragedy & moral guilt: How the novel draws on classical ideas of responsibility.❌ Academizing evil: Max’s tendency to intellectualize and rationalize atrocities.🪦 Life and death in detail: The tension between moments of pastoral beauty and brutal violence.📖 Literary echoes: Comparisons to The Painted Bird, Mother Night, Life and Fate, The Sea and the Poison, and Anniversaries.🔥 Why read difficult books? Brad and Lori reflect on discomfort as a necessary part of meaningful reading.Chapters00:00 – Introduction: Meeting Brad Costa 01:07 – Brad’s background in Holocaust archives 02:59 – First impressions of The Kindly Ones 05:30 – The novel’s historical detail and Littell’s research process 08:37 – Max’s bureaucratic mindset and calorie calculations 11:46 – The human zoo and dehumanization in the narrative 14:24 – True believers vs. bureaucratic indifference 17:16 – Max’s dysfunctional personal life: Sister and mother dynamics 21:08 – Grotesque ironies and Max’s post-war life 23:14 – Thomas vs. Voss: Max’s moral compass 26:52 – Academizing evil as a psychological shield 30:38 – Sympathy for animals, indifference to humans 33:27 – Reading difficult books: Taking breaks and returning 35:28 – Beauty and horror in Littell’s writing 39:40 – Anticipating the end: Will Max ever reckon with his actions? 44:25 – Recommended books for further reading 49:51 – Final reflections: On hubris, denial, and moral discomfort 52:23 – Closing thoughts

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