Video- and performance-art pioneer Joan Jonas and jazz pianist Jason Moran have collaborated for almost 20 years, and it all began with a call. “I phoned him, which was very unusual for me to do. I was very shy,” Jonas remembers. From there, the pair had six weeks to develop The Shape, The Scent, The Feel of Things (2005), a now-iconic performance based on the writings of Aby Warburg. In this episode, Jonas and Moran reminisce on that very first collaboration, what they’ve learned from each other since, and the importance of performance—not just for an art audience in a white cube but for civilization at large.

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