Jamie Lorimer’s THE PROBIOTIC PLANET calls for a rethinking of artificial barriers between science and policy and a sweeping overview of diverse probiotic approaches. Bruce Clarke’s GAIAN SYSTEMS is a pioneering exploration of the complex evolution of Gaia’s many variants. In a conversation that ranges from Lynn Margulis to science fiction, neocybernetics to COVID-19, Lorimer and Clarke ultimately seek insight into solving an environmental crisis of humanity’s own making. This conversation was recorded in November 2020. BOOKS: The Probiotic Planet: z.umn.edu/theprobioticplanet Gaian Systems: z.umn.edu/gaiansystems REFERENCES: Helminth, a species of parasitic worm Heather Paxson on raw milk cheese Bruno Latour Isabelle Stengers Donna Haraway James Lovelock Lynn Margulis Lyndisfarne Conferences Stewart Brand O’Neill cylinder William Gibson’s Neuromancer Stanisław Lem Frank Herbert’s Dune

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