Football scholar Dr Christoph Wagner had been stuck in his western Paris apartment with a young family for a while before we chatted about Uli Hesse's landmark history of German football, 'Tor!' The chance to talk about football was such a relief to both of us that we let it run. Christoph, whose PhD looked at representations of the English and German national teams, details his great love of Hesse's wonderful book. It's a great chat that starts off looking at German football culture and which ultimately veers off into us addressing the subject of how embracing migrant communities has been to the benefit of German and French football and how the violent history of civil wars in Europe has driven migration and changed how we think of 'national teams'. I think this chat was therapy for both of us.

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