If you are struggling with your mental health as a father at any age, this episode is for you. My guest has studied and learned much about the mental health crisis surrounding dads and has written a book about it. He will share his own story and what he has learned and offer much needed hope.Mark Williams is a Keynote Speaker, Author of How Are You Dad and International campaigner for the mental health of fathers.To connect with Mark or learn more about what he is doing visit:https://howareyoudad.co.uk/To purchase How Are you Dad visit: https://amzn.eu/d/iqy5yTFSpecial thanks to Zencastr for sponsoring The Fatherhood Challenge. Use my special link https://zen.ai/CWHIjopqUnnp9xKhbWqscGp-61ATMClwZ1R8J5rm824WHQIJesasjKDm-vGxYtYJ to save 30% off your first month of any Zencastr paid plan.Transcription - A Dads Journey to Mental Wellness---If you're struggling with your mental health as a father at any age, this episode is foryou.My guest has studied and learned much about the mental health crisis surrounding dadsand has written a book about it.He will share his own story in what he has learned and offer much needed hope in justa moment so don't go anywhere.Welcome to the Fatherhood Challenge, a movement to awaken and inspire fathers everywhere totake great pride in their role.And to challenge society to understand how important fathers are to the stability andculture of their families environment.Now here's your host, Jonathan Guerrero.Greetings everyone.Thank you so much for joining me.My guest is Mark Williams.Mark is a keynote speaker, author and international campaigner for mental health awareness forfathers.Mark thank you so much for joining me on the Fatherhood Challenge.No, thank you Jonathan.Honestly, I'm looking forward to it.Actually, share it.And thank you for letting me share the message as well.Definitely.So I've got to ask, what is your favorite joke, Mark?Oh, okay.Dr. Dr. Dr. Dr. I feel like a pair of curtains.You better put yourself together.Bad is bad.Bad.Sorry.Sorry.But I tried.Mark, what is your own personal story behind why you became so involved with mental healthfor fathers?Yeah, it started in 2004.So we planned to become parents.We just come out at a house.Me and Michelle were in totally different jobs where we are now.But yeah, we thought we were ready and I was 30 years of age.But the pregnancy was fine, nothing all the pregnancy.But after 20 hours of labor, Michelle was in bad shape, she was starting to get worse andworse.And the doctors came rushing in and they said, Mr. Williams, your wife needs emergencyC section.We need to get it down the ER quick.And Jonathan's the first time and only time.I've actually had a panic attack and I felt so guilty and all the attention was on me whenit should be on my wife Michelle.And it wasn't when I went to theater then, obviously, a while away from this, obviously,of course.I honestly thought my wife and baby is going to die in that situation and it felt helplessin us.I did not do it.I was under the impression in the labor, cut the baby's cord off of your gall, happy familiesand it wasn't a case for Michelle.And obviously, as we know, now PTSD is an anxiety disorder, the witness in experience andlife-frightening event.So yeah, it's nothing worse than thinking the wife and baby is going to die in that situationfor me and a lot of parents and partners and grandparents as well.So what you basically experienced was a birth trauma?Absolutely, absolutely.Like you said, 19 years ago, it wasn't really much awareness and perinatal mental healthobviously has grown over the last 10 to 12 years, especially in the UK as a state.But back then, we were in even talking about mental health, depression, anxiety or PTSD.Of course, it was associated with people with any armed forces, but people were aware thatof course, fathers can experience PTSD as well and certainly my wife did.But it wasn't until a couple of days after my wife was really well in the ward, things changedrapidly.And I was expecting to leave that birth experience, the fray of us, but obviously it wasall in myself and I couldn't process what just went on.And the first thing I did was drink, knocked my next door neighbors at the time to use alcoholto cope with it because it was just too much going on.But things really escalated after Michelle got discharged and she was quickly after a coupleof weeks in crisis team where my wife is very open about this and she's trying to takeher life by suicide.And this is what my love, obviously, is in still love today, but she never experiencedany anxiety or depression as she should say, severe as she was getting after the birth.So for the first couple of weeks before the crisis team came in, I was trying to hateit from people and trying to, I was worried about social services, I was worried the babywas going to take off, be taken off first, I was worried all thoughts of things of thefather and I was expecting to be back in work in two weeks and I was self-employed.So luckily I had a good manager, I said, look, take as much time as you want, obviouslyyou won't get paid.I was eventually off for six months because after Michelle went into crisis, it was a casethat there was a world and never experience before.And there certainly wasn't any specialist services in the UK for mams back then.My wife was on a hospital ward with people with all different disorders.So I was totally uneducated, I'm a mental health, totally uneducated myself.So yeah, I didn't know about, you know, severe post-apression, but it was late to diagnose afterwardsas she had to PTSD as well.There really wasn't much awareness for how to treat your wife's mental awareness or mentalillness as well, is that what you're saying?Yeah, it's, well, I was CPNU, a community mental health nurse who was caring for Michelle.Gail James, she actually went into the field of specializing in parenting mental health.And she came across a lot of mams like Michelle and she went on to set up a group afterwards.But certainly back then, you know, post-apression fathers, which I talk a lot about as well, you know,it was really a case of like for mams back then, you know, what have you got to be depressedabout?You just had a baby, you know, those sort of conversations were going on as well in 2004.So we have come a long way as well.And certainly back then, you know, and certainly when it comes to fathers, it was lichen, nothing,I wasn't even asked about my mental health back then either, like a lot of fathers todayand I'll ask either.The part I can really relate to is the part where you felt guilty for what you were feelingand you did not want to call any attention to yourself and take the attention off of yourwife who was needing care at that moment as well, very much so.I can relate to that feeling very much.I also experienced birth trauma.It wasn't until many, many years later that I realized that that's what I was going through.But looking back now, I felt exactly what you were feeling.I felt that guilt for what I was feeling and I tried to just suck it up and deal with itin the moment and not call any attention to myself.Yeah, and I know many other dads can have experienced that as well and can relate to that.Yeah, thanks, Jonathan.Thanks for sharing stories as well because it is a big issue that, you know, especially inthe UK and why I've come across a lot of fathers don't get through the cause and end up inservices and who may not, you know, never maybe comes along and there's more anti-natalanxiety then because obviously the fathers think it is going to happen again, you know,those sorts of things.And communication is a big factor, you know, where sometimes my miss over thinking isanything I've done, but the way dad's presenting, like I did, you know, avoiding situations,I was drinking more, feeling feelings of anger, all these sorts of feelings.You know, I couldn't have my wife, I was feeling because I didn't want to impact on her,mental health even more.So I suppressed those feelings for many years as well, you know, so it's very common, morecommon than we think it is, you know.What are the statistics behind fathers who struggle with mental health or fathers who commitsuicide?There's a couple of new studies come out in Canada, a recent study and it's anything like22% onwards, you know, it's a, when you look at the overall studies, it's one in ten, weknow for years and that was over like four, over many studies, but overall it was one inten.So, you know, even though one in ten is a lot, but we've got to remember it was one in tenfor years for mums and then one of us more evidence and research and we're screening and assessmentknowledge behind it, we know now is far higher than when in ten in mums.So eventually this will be known as it is far higher than when in ten, definitely.But the one thing is with suicide, actually suicide, so in any UK is, we call it died by suicidebecause it didn't actually crime to die by suicide.And so it's at the 47 times more risk of father is to obviously of suicide as a new fatherat the 47 and that research came out in 2010.So you know, this, one of the pretty big studies while on the father.So you know, so we got, you know, in the UK especially where we know, you know, the biggestkiller men under 45 being suicide and we know the high risk of suicide in women, whichis high risk in maternal mental health and we still know screen assessment dance, you know.So you know, we know that lollies men will die by suicide after the post-natal period aswell.And also we know that some of the risk factors could have been from what happened as becominga new father as well.So it does get more complex.I was actually diagnosed with ADHD at 40 and ten years ago.So there could be other issues for instance, you know, like for instance, you know, neurodiversityyou got bipolar schizophrenia dad, you know, who struggled with problems with his mentalhealth before becoming a dad.And then he put the lack of sleep on top of that as well, you know, then he got, you know,different structures and different things we know with the transition of parenting aswell.So you know, working more hours because it comes, you know, there's loads of reasons whysometimes it could get worse because when becoming a new dad as well.So in other words, we could really almost spend an entire new episode just on the topic ofthe complexities of mental illness that can contribute into the birth experience or eventhe other way around.I never thought of sleep being a factor, but yes, that's an obvious one.Both the mother and the dad are not getting very much sleep in the very beginning duringthe birth experience and definitely after the birth experience and that plays a very,very big part.And then you added several more factors into it that many of us don't think of.If we have other things going on, if we have ADHD and there may be a host of other thingsthat may be may have been there before the birth and all of that factors in and that reallyleads me into the next question that makes me wonder.I mean, is mental health of fathers ignored or treated with less seriousness or awarenessthan that of mothers and if that is the case?Why do we think that is?Yeah, so I'm not a bit about obviously in the States, you know, about I work with, um,a gentleman called Dr. Daniel Sengley, he does love fathers and, um, but also what I knownow, especially when I'm in the UK is we are understanding that, but it's only whenmums are unwell and the fathers in England can get screened for their mental health.So which is a good start, but a lot of mothers tell me that Mark, I'm fine, you know, my,my partner husband is actually struggling and it's actually impacting on my mental health.And so some of the researchers say in about the 50% of fathers can actually get depressionlooking after the mothers, we post part of them depression as well.So, you know, if, if dad's got a depression, obviously he's up to 50% of the mums can get affected.So the old idea is really getting more realistic approach, you know, support both parentsand at the same time with a struggling and then he outcomes a far better for themselvesand relationships and obviously the child development as well because, you know, like I said,fathers who are near depressed, they less likely to sing, read, dance and play, they less likelyto follow good health guidelines, keeping the baby safe as well. So there's other shows thatcomes into it. Why should we look at a father's mental health because obviously the impactthey may have on the family members as well.That's interesting. I think that is, that may be the first time I've ever heard that approachof treating the mental health of both the mother and the father at the same time.So it's probably safe to assume if one or the other is experiencing depression duringher after the birth experience, it's probably safe to assume the other one is and we're furtherahead just to go ahead and screen and treat them both. I think that is probably one of thewisest approaches I've ever heard.Oh, thanks Jonathan. Like you said, you know, I've been campaigned with government leveland the most important of course is the parents, but the economic cost, you know, we went,you know, that we found, you know, it can say billions, you know, because a lot of these,men are going into other services and relationships break down and then there's other issues withinthe relationship when they can't see a children or sort of things in delinx with a lot of thethings as well. So, yeah, it's that early prevention, you know, and it's such an important time.You know, I always say mental health early prevention starts on pregnancy, you know, so weshould be looking after mum and dad or whoever that parent is, you know, support them becausethen they could look after the baby better than as well.I want to throw this question in there because I know this has been on the minds of manydads. It was definitely on my mind at the time I was going through this. If you are experiencinglike even right now, if you're the dad listening now and you are experiencing depression, it doesn'tmatter if it's been recently after the birth or it's been sometime after the birth ormaybe even during the birth process, but right now you are experiencing some kind of depression,you're just feeling down, you're feeling the blues and there's all kinds of ways that happens.You feel maybe like sleeping more or maybe you're having trouble sleeping. You have all kindsof intrusive thoughts that go through your mind, all kinds of things. If that is you right now,and Mark, I'm asking you, if that dad that's going through this now, should he tell hispartner, should he tell his wife or is it better to keep it to himself?Well, we did some work with parents doing COVID and so I worked with midwife and the mumsfor me that would rather know what's going on than them second guessing. So that came upa lot when we did the exercise. No, I rather know because I'm thinking about everythingand I'm thinking he's having a affair because he's not there. I'm thinking there's 11or sometimes when it comes to sex, sometimes the father's one out of sex, so he partneris because he wanted the partner to be pregnant again and then go from a trauma again.So these topics do come up. But what I know from my own personal experience only is thatwhen I did, I've no choice to tell Michelle when I was in crisis afterwards, that's somethingwe do constantly all the time now, we check in each other and I'm more open with my wife,Michelle now than ever over the last 15 years because nothing is nothing to be ashamed ofreally. We talk about physical health more than ever. So if you are struggling, it couldbe the smallest thing sometimes, it could be the biggest thing to you and that would helpyou partner could actually solve that situation together. So yeah, I'm always very person-centeredwhen I say this but what's worked for me is having a better conversation and opennesswith my partner, Michelle, my wife, Michelle. Okay, so that's completely flipping the narrativeor flipping the thought process of most dads and I think what you said is so powerful and important.So what you're saying is probably maybe one of the first steps of your treatment, if thisis what you're going through, maybe one of the very first steps that you should do isopen up to your partner to your wife to go tell them, be honest with them about howyou're feeling. I can tell you firsthand, I mean, the times I've opened up with my wife,I mean, what it actually does is it does build the connection, it does build closeness, itdoes increase that bond and maybe you're both in the dumps together. But being in that darkplace together is so much better than being in that place alone. It's so powerful to hearyou say that Mark, from your perspective and from your side of it, your wife preferredand most wives would prefer that their husbands would open up about what's going on in theirminds and in their own mental health. Absolutely, Jonathan. Yeah, definitely. It's the bestthing I did actually. And even now, if I want time out, she knows, she's more aware.So yeah, absolutely. It's something like, from the fathers, obviously, I've spoken toover the years as one of the biggest things they just don't want to tell your partners.You know, like you mentioned, true set thoughts, you know, dads have, I've spoken to otherand true set thoughts are going to harm the baby and all sorts of things. Well, we knowit's obviously that happens to moms, you know, so, you know, maternal or paternal or CD, youknow, it is, it is, it is never common area. But the good thing about this show is, well,it's very much, it's raised awareness to educate the mothers so they can look out forthe signs and symptoms if they partner is actually, yes, yes, normal as well. You know, so it'sreally important that mums are aware because, you know, they see them every day as well.The one common thread I see out of this is when it comes to the parinatal mental healthexperience, it is becoming less of a gender issue. Well, maybe we have made it a genderissue, but in fact, it's becoming less of a really of an issue between genders and it'sbecoming a simple basic human need. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. No, you're right. It's, it is, it's,it's, you know, when you think of it, in my experience, obviously, it's, you know, if I,understand of it, you know, that, and the other things that have a father, just speak to,when he know that there's ever fathers, I'll actually speak, if you better, no, and gosh,I'm not the only one now. And this is why it's great that, you know, you're doing thework you're doing, you know, because like I said, I'm all about equality and all about everysingle person should have the same support. And that as far but outcomes as a parent, andit doesn't matter. Like I said, if nobody was shouting for mums years ago, and I was onlyshouting, and everyone shouted for dads, I probably won't be no more for maternal mentalhealth because it's pretty clear. It's pretty obvious that if you support all parents,the outcomes are far better, far far better as well. Now you've written a book. Tell me a littlebit about your book and the journey behind what led you to write that book. Yeah. So I'd,I'd be fortunate, you know, I've done a couple of books over the years. It was one, well,turned into a film on Amazon Prime, Daddy Blues, but it was, and we self-funded it, you know,people think you make a lot of money in books, trust me, you know, unless you're JK Rowlingor something like that. But the idea of the book is really just to raise awareness and understanding.And so the doctor I work with, we did a book a couple of years ago. It was very academic,and it was great, great book for, but I wanted to write the book with evidence and research. Andso that anyone, you know, anyone interested in in mental health, you know, social workers,doctors, could be, you know, in parents may have an interest in mental health. You know, so it'sreally for people like really just show the evidence in it, you know, and give the voices of parentsin it as well as well as the academics as well. It's very important. And we, I put that in there aswell. So, yeah, it's just, just come out now soon. It's how are you, Dad? And if anyone's interestedas well as, I did a TEDx talk called The Importance of Mental Health, which is obviously the,the strap line of the book, really. So, you know, they can have a look at that to, to share withthe colleagues or whatever, because they might have a father or a friend who's struggling and it's justnormalizing a conversation that all the thoughts and feelings I was getting as a new father. There wasso many out there having it, but I didn't know any other fathers going through the same sort ofjuniors me at the time. If you know, happen to know a dad who is struggling with his mental health,whether it's a new dad or a dad that's struggling with paternal postpartum depression or an older daddoesn't matter, what are the most important things that you can do to help? Certainly, as mentionedobviously, you know, going to see your health professional, you know, obviously. But one thing's,you know, just having a conversation, you know, looking over different signs and signs forbehaviors that could be, you know, like I mentioned, you know, is your body, you're doing more,you know, is he, is this personally changed during the pregnancy and afterwards, you know,these could be signs as well, you know, as mentioned, but then, but also, like I said, it's,it's really, I found when I started educating myself on it as well, I found, gosh, you know,that helped me a lot as well, understanding why I was behaving in different ways as well.But yeah, I think if there's any, any colleagues out there, just ask the question, you know,how are you dad, you know, how are you getting on, you know, because like you mentioned,you know, sleep, you know, sleep, you know, severe sleep deprivation, you know, you know, that can causepsychosis on its own, you know, so, so these sort of things, you know, maybe some fathers would just want,just want a conversation, just see how things going on and I don't see them again, then, you know,just want to have a chat and to the most severe end where unfortunately I've supported fathers where,you know, they have made plans to die by suicide and obviously we've put interventions in place,then, but sometimes the majority of fathers, they speak, they just want something to talk to, justsaying this is how he's feeling because certainly when I would be coming, I didn't have enough,I didn't have, I didn't get as well when I've been left my son initially, you know, because I wasjust so concerned, you know, it was so much going on, but that bond and attachment grew when I washome for that six months, doing skin skin, baby mass, all that stuff, which has helped talk myself.So these sort of things can help dads as well, you know, you know, skin to skin, you know,really starts to touch and go for the dial and baby, you know, being involved in to breastfeeding where,you know, fathers may feel excluded sometimes during this period and I feel isolation loneliness.So it's in trying to empower the dads and explain to the moms that it's very important that we includedads in this in this process as well. The title of your book makes it so simple. How are you, Dad?The simple question, very, very simple question can have such a powerful impact just checking inwith that dad. That's what I love that the advice that you gave it. It's so simple and it isprobably the one thing that a lot of new dads and even older dads are hungry for the most,that community, that that fellowship. In addition to reading your book, what are some other resourcesthat you would recommend to dads who just need a little bit of extra hope? I'm certainly,look at more the, you know, like, for instance, the early years that, you know, I feel like becoming a newdad, you know, prepare yourself, you know, the language and the labor, what can cause trauma as well,you know, you know, for me, you know, emergency C section, you know, so the language, you know,empower, you know, learning, asking midwife, you know, if you've got any questions, you know,empower yourself to go on to it. It doesn't matter how silly the question is, make sure, you know,you get your point across, so you can understand the better as well. So yeah, it's engaged inthe health profession, but remember, you know, dads out there, you've got your own experience andremember that it's okay, that was feelings. And to empower yourself, you know, it might be moreconsiderable, your partner's mental health, you know, empower yourself to say, okay, I want to knowmore, you know, for instance, so that's something I can think of atop my head. How can dads find yourbook, connect with you or learn more about what you're doing? I got a website, it's called www.howyoudad.co.ukand there's some articles, obviously, I've done, you know, online, so if you look at Mark Williams,father's mental health and we also got an international day, which is always a day after father'sday in the UK, and it's international father's mental health day. So if anyone wants to be involvedwith that, anyone really can, can, can, can certainly come on board and we on that day, we do certainlygive out a lot of information and resources and obviously normalize those conversations. Weshould be talking about every day, but it's one day of the year that we really, really push ourselvesup there to get as much information out of the people. And just to make things easier, if you go tothe fatherhoodchallenge.com, that's the fatherhoodchallenge.com. If you go to this episode, look right below theepisode description and I'm going to have all of the links posted there for your convenience, so you canjust click on them and it'll take you right to those resources. And Mark, as we close, what is yourchallenge to that dad listening now who's struggling and he's just bottling everything inside?Yeah, well, I'll take myself to that moment, you know, the quicker the help, the quicker recovery,and there's no shame. And if, if, luckily for me, well, I had a total breakdown because I was,I was so on well, I was going to have a little thoughts, obviously, suicide, never made a plan,never made a plan, but I was very, and well. And so the quicker the help, the quicker recovery,I always say, you know, at the end of the day, it's, you know, early prevention, you know, because I knowfor my own experience, and speaking to other parents, you know, it just gets worse and worse and worse,and that's not good for you, your family, and obviously your children as well, so yeah, don'tbe no shame, just make sure you speak out today to somebody.It has been an honor and a pleasure having you on the fatherhoodchallenge. You've given us so much tothink about, you've challenged our thinking, and I know you've helped a lot of dads out therethat just need that extra little bit of encouragement and help you provided resources to be able tohelp these dads heal. Thank you so much for being on the fatherhoodchallenge.No, thank you Jonathan, thanks for asking me, thank you.Thank you for listening to this episode of the Fatherhood Challenge. If you would like to contact us,listen to other episodes, find any resource mentioned in this program or find out moreinformation about the fatherhood challenge, please visit thefatherhoodchallenge.com. That's thefatherhoodchallenge.com.[ Silence ]Support this podcast at — https://redcircle.com/thefatherhoodchallengepodcast/donations

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