The Messy MiddleIn this wide-ranging, candid episode of Our Rough Draft, Denise and Tim unpack what “middle life” feels like—from the frustration of overgeneralized research to the consequences of repeated moves and the friendships that survive seasons of change.Denise reflects on her academic research (Cycle Zero complete!) and why she prefers “holding the process loosely” over blindly trusting one-size-fits-all systems. They talk about the Wenatchee move, what they learned (and what they regret), and how it exposed limits in both jobs and mental health. Moving through Seattle, Duval, Wenatchee, Gold Bar, Redmond, Woodinville, and finally Phoenix taught them hard lessons—rent first, read the neighborhood, and keep your priorities aligned.The conversation turns to friendships: who stayed, who faded, and why some relationships are seasonal while others become foundations. They also share practical marriage lessons learned over 25 years—how to avoid “one-upmanship” in empathy, set simple rules about venting, and put the relationship first so the family (“the five”) can thrive.Whether you’re mid-transition, questioning the advice you read online, or navigating relationships across life seasons, this episode offers honest reflection and practical tools for the messy middle.What We Talk AboutWeek check-in: painting, bench-building, and creative breaksCycle Zero research finished — why Denise prefers “hold it loosely” over “trust the process”Limits of research and why context and sampling matter (social science vs. clinical trials; gerontologist example)Regret vs. learning: the Wenatchee move, mental health, and the regret of waiting too long to speak upIdentity and midlife: who you are vs. the role you play in a new job or seasonA timeline of moves and big rental lessons (rent before you buy; know the neighborhood)Hosting Young Life, noisy neighbors, and community moments that matteredFriendships that faded vs. friendships that deepened—why some people stay and others leaveStrategies that have kept their marriage strong after 25 years: prioritizing the relationship, avoiding empathy competition, and using small communication shortcutsStability redefined: the house as a base, not the whole storyConversation StartersWhen someone gives blanket advice based on narrow research, how do you decide whether it applies to you?Have you ever stayed too long in a role or place before speaking up? What prompted you to change?How do seasons of friendship show up in your life—who has stayed through job changes, moves, or parenting transitions?What does “stability” mean to you: a place, a person, or both?Connect & ReflectWe’d love to hear about a season of change in your life—moves, job transitions, or friendships that shifted. Tag @theroughdraft or email us your story. Tell us: what became your base when everything else changed?

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