In this conversation, I talk with clinical psychologist and author Dr. Naomi Fisher about self-directed education, and why it can be such a powerful approach for neurodivergent kids, especially those with a PDA profile. Naomi shares why agency is so important in learning, how traditional school can chip away at a child’s self-worth, and what it looks like when we truly support demand-avoidant kids in ways that work for them. We also get into the challenges parents face when stepping outside the norm and why keeping the parent-child relationship at the center is key.Things you'll learn from this episodeWhy agency in learning is essential for neurodivergent children to build confidence, reduce anxiety, and stay engagedHow self-directed education supports children—especially those with PDA—by minimizing pressure and honoring their natural paceWhy respecting a child’s right to say no is foundational for creating a safe, trust-based learning environmentHow understanding the cycle of demand avoidance helps reframe “bad behavior” as a response to overwhelm, not defianceWhy shifting away from rigid definitions of academic success can open the door to more authentic growth and capabilityHow prioritizing the parent-child relationship and finding community support helps families confidently navigate less conventional pathsResources mentioned⁠Dr. Naomi Fisher’s website⁠⁠Naomi Fisher on Substack⁠⁠A Different Way to Learn⁠ by Naomi Fisher⁠Eliza Fricker Talks About Parenting a Child with PDA⁠ (Tilt Parenting Podcast)⁠Eliza Fricker’s website⁠⁠The Family Experience of PDA⁠ by Eliza Fricker⁠Eliza Fricker / Missing the Mark on Facebook⁠⁠Changing Our Minds: How Children Can Take Control of Their Own Learning⁠ by Naomi Fisher⁠What Can We Do When School’s Not Working: An Illustrated Handbook for Professionals⁠ by Naomi Fisher⁠Dr. Ross Greene’s Collaborative and Proactive Solutions Model

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