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Listen "Navigating the Global Realignment: Human Rights at the edges."
Episode Synopsis
Episode Description
In this compelling conversation, Dave speaks with Florian Irminger about his journey from high-visibility political leadership to behind-the-scenes human rights advocacy, and what he calls the "Global Realignment" we're all navigating. This episode explores how leaders can pivot from old ways of working to meet unprecedented challenges, why admitting "I don't know" is becoming essential leadership, and how human rights work is at the leading edge of what we all need to learn to thrive in this new world.
Guest Bio: Florian Irminger
Florian Irminger is the founder of Progress & Change Action Lab, an advisory group dedicated to supporting organizations and institutions navigating complex social and political transformations. Following his tenure as Secretary-General of the Swiss Green Party, Florian made the conscious decision to step back from high-visibility political leadership to work behind the scenes, supporting others in creating meaningful change.
Inspired by Robert F. Kennedy's words that "Progress is the nice word we like to use. But change is its motivator. And change has its enemies," Florian has dedicated his work to addressing what he calls the "Global Realignment"—fundamental shifts in our political, social, and human rights landscape.
Recently, Florian launched two significant initiatives: the Human Rights Compass, which brings together organizations beyond traditional branding to collaborate on key recommendations for addressing global challenges, and the Human Rights Index, launched in response to political and social media shifts.
Dave first met Florian when he was working at Human Rights House headquarters in Oslo, and later worked with him as he opened offices in Geneva and Brussels. They've maintained their connection as Florian's career and life have evolved.
Episode Timeline & Key Themes
00:00 - 03:00: Opening & Origins
Introduction and reflection on their 10+ year relationship since meeting at Human Rights House in Oslo
The memorable story of humor as a mask - early coaching insight that stayed with Florian
03:00 - 07:40: The Personal Pivot
Florian's decision to step back from his own career to support his wife's diplomatic career
Moving from 250 emails a day to 10, but each with real value
The luxury of being able to focus on what's essential
07:40 - 12:54: From Public to Behind-the-Scenes Leadership
Shifting from getting energy from public attention to finding nourishment in deeper work
Creating breathing spaces for overwhelmed human rights CEOs
The loneliness of leadership and the power of authentic connection
12:54 - 21:10: The Global Realignment
How COVID revealed similarities between different sectors facing uncertainty
The challenge for human rights CEOs in an increasingly hostile environment
RFK's insight: "Progress is the nice word we like to use. But change is its motivator. And change has its enemies"
Why the resistance isn't to human rights values but to the change required
21:10 - 26:48: Working with "Angels" - The NGO Challenge
Managing organizations full of well-intentioned, highly educated people who see themselves as "doing good"
The difficulty when "angels" suddenly find themselves labeled as enemies
The need for inward-looking organizational development, not just external solutions
26:48 - 34:02: The Compass Has Lost North
Why traditional approaches no longer work in the current environment
The image of a compass that's lost its north - we need to learn to hold it differently
How social recognition for human rights workers has disappeared in many places
The question: "Where will these people find recognition now?"
34:02 - 38:04: From Classical Music to Jazz
The need to stop having all the answers and start asking better questions
Moving from classical music (well-written, well-played) to jazz (improvisation and listening)
The challenge when "the paper the music is written on is burning"
38:04 - 43:10: Recognizing Readiness for Change
How to identify when leaders are ready to change (hint: it's not about tenure)
The power of admitting uncertainty as an indicator of readiness
The counterintuitive truth that vulnerability creates organizational strength
43:10 - 46:39: The 3AM Disquiet
Why this is a moment for public leaders to be authentic about not knowing
The parallel between Dave's coaching work and Florian's policy work
How both are seeing similar patterns across different sectors
46:39 - 52:00: Working Between Organizations
The freedom and authenticity that comes from not being institutionally bound
How COVID changed how people want to work - more connection to family, less institutional boundaries
The future of human rights work: organizations adapting to individuals rather than vice versa
52:00 - 1:00:14: Navigating Crisis Fatigue
The story of the 13-year-old who believed "we're all going to burn"
How we've been "exhausting the public" with constant crisis messaging
The fear that continuous pressure will create numbness and loss of empathy in human rights workers
1:00:14 - 1:06:32: The Lost Decade
Working with people who don't have all the answers (the easy tell: if they say they do, they're not ready)
The regression of human progress indicators for the first time since 1945
Why this decade (2020s) may be remembered as "the black hole decade"
The hope that universal suffering will create unity across all sectors of society
1:06:32 - 1:11:54: Personal Navigation Strategies
Florian's shift from traditional meditation to playing saxophone as breathing/connection practice
How the saxophone reveals his emotional state
The importance of reading classic literature to gain a historical perspective
Stepping back from the immediacy of social media and current events
1:11:54 - 1:16:31: Whispers from the Future
The recognition that mental health support is needed but still stigmatized
Faith that humanity is equipped to overcome this moment, as it has before
The reminder that it takes only seconds to destroy what humanity builds over centuries
"The pyramids are still standing."
1:16:31 - 1:21:08: Closing Reflections
The impact of stress on leadership capacity and judgment
How people are reverting to more instinctive, animal-like reactions
The importance of "getting the individuals right" for society to come together
Key Quotes
"I want to work with people that I like. So that is my new life journey - to value the family first, and value the people that I want to work with."
"Progress is the nice word we like to use. But change is its motivator. And change has its enemies." - RFK
"We need to stop thinking that we have answers and learn better how to ask questions... We need to start playing jazz, because then we're improvising and listening to each other."
"I think admitting the uncertainty is, to me, an indicator of readiness to change."
"We are really equipped to deal with all of this and to come together. I just don't know who will be the 'we' and where it will happen and when."
Resources Mentioned
Human Rights Compass: http://humanrightscompass.org
Human Rights Index: https://bsky.app/profile/humanrightsindex.bsky.social
Progress & Change Action Lab: https://progress-change-actionlab.org
Books mentioned:
The contemporary author mentioned is Karine Tuil (I think some of her work was actually translated);
The book from which I was quoting at the start, about the use of humour by Boris Johnson, was Anthony Seldon’s “Johnson at 10. The Inside Story”;
Jean-Claude Guillebaud’s “La foundation du monde” is the book discussed regarding the 20th century's lack of closure.
At the very end, the book was Jostein Gaarder’s “Maya”.
Connect with Florian
Progress & Change Action Lab: https://progress-change-actionlab.org
Human Rights Compass: http://humanrightscompass.org
Key Takeaways
The Power of the Pivot: Sometimes stepping back from visibility creates more authentic impact
Admitting "I Don't Know": In times of uncertainty, vulnerability becomes a leadership strength
From Answers to Questions: Moving from classical music to jazz - improvising and listening rather than following old scripts
The Global Realignment: We're all navigating similar challenges across different sectors
Personal Navigation: Finding practices (like saxophone for breathing, classic literature for perspective) to maintain balance in chaos
Future Hope: Humanity has overcome difficult moments before and is equipped to do so again
This was a profound conversation about leadership, change, and hope in uncertain times. Perfect for anyone navigating their own pivot in work, leadership, or life.
My website: www.daveschoof.com
Original music: Phil Schoof
Production: Phil Schoof
In this compelling conversation, Dave speaks with Florian Irminger about his journey from high-visibility political leadership to behind-the-scenes human rights advocacy, and what he calls the "Global Realignment" we're all navigating. This episode explores how leaders can pivot from old ways of working to meet unprecedented challenges, why admitting "I don't know" is becoming essential leadership, and how human rights work is at the leading edge of what we all need to learn to thrive in this new world.
Guest Bio: Florian Irminger
Florian Irminger is the founder of Progress & Change Action Lab, an advisory group dedicated to supporting organizations and institutions navigating complex social and political transformations. Following his tenure as Secretary-General of the Swiss Green Party, Florian made the conscious decision to step back from high-visibility political leadership to work behind the scenes, supporting others in creating meaningful change.
Inspired by Robert F. Kennedy's words that "Progress is the nice word we like to use. But change is its motivator. And change has its enemies," Florian has dedicated his work to addressing what he calls the "Global Realignment"—fundamental shifts in our political, social, and human rights landscape.
Recently, Florian launched two significant initiatives: the Human Rights Compass, which brings together organizations beyond traditional branding to collaborate on key recommendations for addressing global challenges, and the Human Rights Index, launched in response to political and social media shifts.
Dave first met Florian when he was working at Human Rights House headquarters in Oslo, and later worked with him as he opened offices in Geneva and Brussels. They've maintained their connection as Florian's career and life have evolved.
Episode Timeline & Key Themes
00:00 - 03:00: Opening & Origins
Introduction and reflection on their 10+ year relationship since meeting at Human Rights House in Oslo
The memorable story of humor as a mask - early coaching insight that stayed with Florian
03:00 - 07:40: The Personal Pivot
Florian's decision to step back from his own career to support his wife's diplomatic career
Moving from 250 emails a day to 10, but each with real value
The luxury of being able to focus on what's essential
07:40 - 12:54: From Public to Behind-the-Scenes Leadership
Shifting from getting energy from public attention to finding nourishment in deeper work
Creating breathing spaces for overwhelmed human rights CEOs
The loneliness of leadership and the power of authentic connection
12:54 - 21:10: The Global Realignment
How COVID revealed similarities between different sectors facing uncertainty
The challenge for human rights CEOs in an increasingly hostile environment
RFK's insight: "Progress is the nice word we like to use. But change is its motivator. And change has its enemies"
Why the resistance isn't to human rights values but to the change required
21:10 - 26:48: Working with "Angels" - The NGO Challenge
Managing organizations full of well-intentioned, highly educated people who see themselves as "doing good"
The difficulty when "angels" suddenly find themselves labeled as enemies
The need for inward-looking organizational development, not just external solutions
26:48 - 34:02: The Compass Has Lost North
Why traditional approaches no longer work in the current environment
The image of a compass that's lost its north - we need to learn to hold it differently
How social recognition for human rights workers has disappeared in many places
The question: "Where will these people find recognition now?"
34:02 - 38:04: From Classical Music to Jazz
The need to stop having all the answers and start asking better questions
Moving from classical music (well-written, well-played) to jazz (improvisation and listening)
The challenge when "the paper the music is written on is burning"
38:04 - 43:10: Recognizing Readiness for Change
How to identify when leaders are ready to change (hint: it's not about tenure)
The power of admitting uncertainty as an indicator of readiness
The counterintuitive truth that vulnerability creates organizational strength
43:10 - 46:39: The 3AM Disquiet
Why this is a moment for public leaders to be authentic about not knowing
The parallel between Dave's coaching work and Florian's policy work
How both are seeing similar patterns across different sectors
46:39 - 52:00: Working Between Organizations
The freedom and authenticity that comes from not being institutionally bound
How COVID changed how people want to work - more connection to family, less institutional boundaries
The future of human rights work: organizations adapting to individuals rather than vice versa
52:00 - 1:00:14: Navigating Crisis Fatigue
The story of the 13-year-old who believed "we're all going to burn"
How we've been "exhausting the public" with constant crisis messaging
The fear that continuous pressure will create numbness and loss of empathy in human rights workers
1:00:14 - 1:06:32: The Lost Decade
Working with people who don't have all the answers (the easy tell: if they say they do, they're not ready)
The regression of human progress indicators for the first time since 1945
Why this decade (2020s) may be remembered as "the black hole decade"
The hope that universal suffering will create unity across all sectors of society
1:06:32 - 1:11:54: Personal Navigation Strategies
Florian's shift from traditional meditation to playing saxophone as breathing/connection practice
How the saxophone reveals his emotional state
The importance of reading classic literature to gain a historical perspective
Stepping back from the immediacy of social media and current events
1:11:54 - 1:16:31: Whispers from the Future
The recognition that mental health support is needed but still stigmatized
Faith that humanity is equipped to overcome this moment, as it has before
The reminder that it takes only seconds to destroy what humanity builds over centuries
"The pyramids are still standing."
1:16:31 - 1:21:08: Closing Reflections
The impact of stress on leadership capacity and judgment
How people are reverting to more instinctive, animal-like reactions
The importance of "getting the individuals right" for society to come together
Key Quotes
"I want to work with people that I like. So that is my new life journey - to value the family first, and value the people that I want to work with."
"Progress is the nice word we like to use. But change is its motivator. And change has its enemies." - RFK
"We need to stop thinking that we have answers and learn better how to ask questions... We need to start playing jazz, because then we're improvising and listening to each other."
"I think admitting the uncertainty is, to me, an indicator of readiness to change."
"We are really equipped to deal with all of this and to come together. I just don't know who will be the 'we' and where it will happen and when."
Resources Mentioned
Human Rights Compass: http://humanrightscompass.org
Human Rights Index: https://bsky.app/profile/humanrightsindex.bsky.social
Progress & Change Action Lab: https://progress-change-actionlab.org
Books mentioned:
The contemporary author mentioned is Karine Tuil (I think some of her work was actually translated);
The book from which I was quoting at the start, about the use of humour by Boris Johnson, was Anthony Seldon’s “Johnson at 10. The Inside Story”;
Jean-Claude Guillebaud’s “La foundation du monde” is the book discussed regarding the 20th century's lack of closure.
At the very end, the book was Jostein Gaarder’s “Maya”.
Connect with Florian
Progress & Change Action Lab: https://progress-change-actionlab.org
Human Rights Compass: http://humanrightscompass.org
Key Takeaways
The Power of the Pivot: Sometimes stepping back from visibility creates more authentic impact
Admitting "I Don't Know": In times of uncertainty, vulnerability becomes a leadership strength
From Answers to Questions: Moving from classical music to jazz - improvising and listening rather than following old scripts
The Global Realignment: We're all navigating similar challenges across different sectors
Personal Navigation: Finding practices (like saxophone for breathing, classic literature for perspective) to maintain balance in chaos
Future Hope: Humanity has overcome difficult moments before and is equipped to do so again
This was a profound conversation about leadership, change, and hope in uncertain times. Perfect for anyone navigating their own pivot in work, leadership, or life.
My website: www.daveschoof.com
Original music: Phil Schoof
Production: Phil Schoof
More episodes of the podcast The PIVOT: Navigating Uncharted Territory with Dave Schoof
Emergent Leadership and Psychdelics
06/01/2025
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