Ken Gildow shares his story of having a devastating stroke in November 2022 and his realization that he wanted to create purpose in his life by helping others who face similar challenges. He wants to inspire those affected by strokes that there is hope and life after experiencing significant cognitive, emotional and physical challenges.

Show notes:
[00:00:02.380] - Pat Sheveland
Hi there. I am just so excited because I have an old colleague, friend, someone that I've known for many, many, many years, decades actually. We used to work together in the workers' compensation insurance industry. Ken is still there. I have transitioned out back in 2015, but Ken reached out to me recently. I want to share a little bit about Ken and why we are doing this YouTube video together. But first, I want to say hi, Ken. I'm just so thrilled that we're able to do this. Ken said it was okay if I shared a little bit. He sent me an email back in January, I think it might have been, and he said, Pat, I had a stroke in November of 2022 due to unhealthy habits and I would like to share my journey of recovery. I am back to work now, but I have desk visits to my right side, cognitive abilities, and some other things that are going on just from having a stroke. I have a hard time writing or typing. I'm very slow. I'm off the walker now and up to a mile at the track. Now, remember, this is back in January.

[00:01:17.490] - Pat Sheveland
Now he'll tell us that he was just on an amazing trip with his wife recently, and that's why it's taken us a while to get on this video. He said I've been through OT, PT, and voice therapies, and they have been very helpful. I've seen some YouTube videos that have brought me some inspiration, but not necessarily a stroke victim. I thought of doing some, and then I see your emails and I thought of you and our RTW ideas. This is where we work and we very passionate about what we have done in our career of changing and saving lives. I contemplated ending it all in the beginning as I didn't want to be a burden to my wife and kids. I didn't know that I would get better. I chose life. I would like to be an inspiration to others. It's emotional. Ken and I were just talking about that when we are on this video, Ken may cry. That's part of having experienced a stroke. It changes the way that our brain reacts. But hearing that and hearing, Ken, I'm so grateful that you're here. I'm getting teary just because I'm so grateful that you're here physically, that you're here and reaching out and saying, Hey, I want to share my experience.

[00:02:23.340] - Pat Sheveland
We talked a little bit about the crying and that's normal. It's normal. If any of you listening out here have had a stroke, or someone you love has had a stroke, or a co-worker has a stroke, these are some of the things that we're going to learn from Ken is, let's talk about the recovery and really your journey. I'd really like to hear your journey from even before the stroke. But, Ken, this is what I know about Ken. A beautiful husband, a loving husband, an amazing dad, a wonderful person, not just a co worker. We all became friends. We all really connect and connected in the workplace. An avid outdoorsman, loved getting out there fishing, loved riding your motorcycle, all of those things. Then in a split second, life can change. That's why we're talking about this. How do you move from that deep despair fear to, Wow, you're wearing green for St. Patty's Day weekend. You just went on an amazing trip. T hat's only over a short few months. That's not like it's been years. In the making, your recovery has had a pretty fast trajectory. Ken, thank you again for being here and sharing your story.

[00:03:37.710] - Pat Sheveland
I'm going to lay it out to you a little bit as much as you're comfortable in sharing. The other thing I want our audience to know is this did affect your stamina, your energy levels, your speech, your thinking process. So it's okay. However this goes, it's okay. So just share in your own words and at your own speed and tempo your journey.

[00:04:00.280] - Ken Gildow
First of all, I would like everybody to know they should see a doctor and get their blood work done. I had God many years without and found out after my stroke, I was diabetic and had high blood pressure and some other things. And this all could have been prevented if I would have seen a doctor sooner, I think. But again, I felt like I was healthy. I had some medical issues, but it didn't prevent me from hunting and fishing and so forth. And my stroke journey really began in November when I had my stroke. And all of a sudden, I just couldn't walk and talk the day I had the stroke. And my wife encouraged me to go to the doctor. And of course, I was stubborn and said I would not go until the next day. I did go the next day. And they told me I had a stroke and there was not much they could do for me at that point other than give me some medication. And I did go to stay in the hospital for a few days and then I did go home and I was depressed at the time because I had lost function of my right side, cognitive abilities.

[00:05:10.180] - Ken Gildow
It was another thing I don't like to talk about incontinent and just had some brain issues all around. But I did come back pretty quick as far as my health. I really did work hard at it and I faked it. I think fake it till you make it, I guess, they say. And I started walking and then using the locker. And then I was able to go finally get through tooth therapy after a month. And then after that time, I was walking at our local gym and walking at first half a mile. And then I tried to increase that as much as I could and increase that to over a mile. Started lifting weight and recovered so much. And that was a goal of mine as well to run this trip. We went to five countries on a Viking cruise, which I've never been on a cruise before. And so we did have fun. And I did meet a lot of nice people on this cruise. And I did meet the person who had a stroke three years ago, and they were an inspiration. But that's what I am today.

[00:06:22.470] - Pat Sheveland
And scary. And people don't... Many people don't know this. I shared with Ken. I didn't even know if he knew that. But 30 years ago when my husband and I were married, three weeks, it was my second husband, we had little children, that blended family, and he had a massive stroke. Three weeks after we were married, he was in his early 30s. Same thing high blood pressure, never went to the doctor. He was going out hunting. The night before, they were trapesting through the woods to get their blinds up, soggy wet. It was November. He came home and in the middle of the night, he had a massive stroke. He actually started shaking and almost like, not seizures, but his legs were just started jumping all over the bed. I knew I'm a nurse, a registered nurse. Immediately, I knew intuitively, Oh, my gosh, he's having a stroke because he couldn't speak. We get him into the doctor. He, too, had to go through all that therapy. He had to relearn to walk. His voice was high pitched, so as the effects of the stroke dissipated, then his voice started coming back to normal. Definitely the cognitive things, all of that.

[00:07:30.150] - Pat Sheveland
It was frightening. He was so scared. I was so scared because it affects the whole family. It's a family thing. But I want to go back to what you said. First, go to the doctor. What the statistics are, if you go in and get treatment for your stroke right away, you have such a good chance of recovering from most strokes, depending on where the stroke hits in the brain and that type of thing. But the longer that you go, days, days, weeks, whatever, the deficits will stay. And that's what happened with my father. He didn't go, he didn't go to treat, and then he didn't do the therapy. So he was aphasic, he couldn't talk, took away the voice that was so important to him. I agree, anybody who's listening, go in and be checked out. And if you have a history of hypertension in your family, high blood pressure, go in. You can go into your local drug store and have your blood pressure checked. And just make sure that it's in a good form there. But do go in and just have a physical once a year. Just make sure everything is going well.

[00:08:31.950] - Pat Sheveland
That's so important. Thank you for that. Psa, what does that public service announcement? Take care of ourselves, especially when we're young. We think that we're invincible and we start getting into our middle ages and it's like, oh, something creep up. The one thing that, and I know that this can be emotional for you, but that deep despair. What brought you to move from that despair to. I choose life?

[00:08:59.670] - Ken Gildow
I don't know if I had credit to anything in particular, but I have seen some YouTube videos that did inspire me. They weren't stroke victims necessarily, but they were people with different difficulties, and they did bring inspiration to me. That's one of the reasons why I wanted to be on video.

[00:09:22.800] - Pat Sheveland
To hear from others who have actually lived this experience and come out okay.

[00:09:28.150] - Ken Gildow
Like this person that I met on the cruise, it took them a year, year and a half before they recovered from... I shouldn't say fully recovered, but recovered enough to get along pretty well. It took them about a year and a half.

[00:09:43.420] - Pat Sheveland
Yeah, it takes time. And usually the trajectory is the first few months you go into therapy and you start seeing amazing strides, right? And then it tapers off a little bit. And that, I'm sure, can be scary, too. Like, oh, my gosh, did I hit a plateau?

[00:09:58.730] - Ken Gildow
I know. And I did run into that recently, and I was depressed about it. And I did think I was losing my mind, but not losing my mind, but being forgetful. I forgot my wife's wrapped up at the Viking cruise, but we were able to recover it, so that was good. But I noticed that I was forgetting things, but I don't know if I was forgetting things early on in my stroke and just realizing it, or if it was a new thing.

[00:10:30.180] - Pat Sheveland
Because you have so many other things that you've got your mind focused on when you first have that stroke and you need to just think of, Okay, how am I going to walk? How do I talk? And all of that therapeutic models, the OT, the PT, and all of that that you probably don't have. Your brain only has so much bandwidth to what's front and center, so you may not have realized that. Oh, I've forgotten a few things. The beautiful thing is neuroplasticity. Have you heard that term before?

[00:10:58.210] - Ken Gildow
I heard where the brain rewires itself in different manners or different ways.

[00:11:04.270] - Pat Sheveland
Yeah. And it takes time. I did a video with, she actually is the head, the chair at the University of Arizona in psychology department or whatever. S he wrote a book called The Grieving Brain. Hers was focused on grieving from the death of a loved one, focused on that. But the same thing happened. She said a lot of people, when we're grieving, we think, Oh, it's been six months. It's been a year. I'm not moving from where I don't feel like I'm moving from where I'm at. T hat's what she said is our brain has this pattern imprinted. The pattern of your life and everything that you're doing prior to the stroke, it's imprinted in the way that things were done and the way that you did things imprinted on your brain, it's stamped in your brain. It takes time to have that change because she said the brain is like a computer. And so sometimes all of that computer memory is stored in there. And until you put in new code, that old stuff is still there. But then when you start putting in new code, the computer has learned some new things and can be more effective in other ways.

[00:12:16.940] - Pat Sheveland
That's what our brain does. So being forgetful today may not be forgetful a month from now. Rewiring that.

[00:12:24.500] - Ken Gildow
Yeah, correct. I've tried not to take medications for this and that for depression, or to take medications for crying all the time. They do have medications for that. I shouldn't say crying all the time, but oftentimes I become emotional. But there is a specific name for that, and I forgot what it was. But I have been trying not to take medications, mainly because I don't know what they do to you, and it's okay to be emotional.

[00:12:54.910] - Pat Sheveland
That's not a weakness. As we said, the brain has a certain mechanism, but sometimes it might short circuit because of the stroke. Where you may want to laugh, the tears may come out, or you want to cry and laugh. My dad, sometimes, and I know working in the hospital and nursing homes when I was younger, sometimes it was like inappropriate laughter. And it's like, where did that come from? And it's because understanding that this is a physiological thing. So it's even though people can't see the inside of your brain, that is part of it. But the emotion I also believe is when one is faced with a life event like this, we do tap into our emotions more. We realize what's important.

[00:13:39.570] - Ken Gildow
I know I've become more empathetic since I've had this stroke than I ever have been.

[00:13:44.830] - Pat Sheveland
Really? Okay. That's a powerful plus, right? I always say that I always think that you were. You've always been the quiet, a little bit more silent type with a sense of humor that will just come out and you bring joy to people that way, but you always were a good listener. To me, that's empathy.

[00:14:04.700] - Ken Gildow
I appreciate that.

[00:14:06.090] - Pat Sheveland
And you were able to get back to work. And your work is brain work.

[00:14:09.520] - Ken Gildow
It is. But I seem to be more forgetful of new things than old things. I do remember the old, our times together, I remember that was more easily than I do new things. That's, again, part of my stroke.

[00:14:25.800] - Pat Sheveland
Right. Well, Ken works in the workers' compensation industry. He has a claims administrator for many decades where he helped injured workers in getting their benefits, getting back to work, getting the medical care that they need. He worked in conjunction with nurses, and so they really support people who have experienced the work injury. The emotional pieces, we know that getting back to work... Ken and I lived in Brede this, probably could have had it tattooed on our asses, return to work because we know how important it is physiologically, mentally, everything is just a win win for everybody. Going back to work after a stroke, how quickly did you go back to work after you had the stroke in November?

[00:15:12.820] - Ken Gildow
I went in December sometime in the middle of December part time, and I was part time through January eighth, I think it was. But actually, because we were bought out by Liberty Mutual, I started January third full time, so I wouldn't be working full time for them. We had unlimited time off at our old job with State Auto, and I really do appreciate returning to work, and I appreciate the people that I work with. They've made life really bearable. I do believe working helped me quite a bit. Saved my life.

[00:15:54.460] - Pat Sheveland
Because we know that when we're sitting and we're so focused on our physical or even when I'm working with people who are grieving the deep loss, which this is, this is grief, the loss of our physical capabilities, the loss of how our life looked like before, some of the deficits that may linger for a time or may show up when we get tired, that type of thing. That's a significant loss. That's great. It's experiencing that. But even for those who have experienced the depth of the loss of their partner, their child, that type of thing. One of the things that I teach them in the breathe coaching model for grief, which I share is finding your purpose. Because once we can look outside of ourselves and start helping someone else, that's when we really start feeling because we're not so focused on ourselves. I know when I worked with you all those years, 25 years I was with that company, and I knew that if someone could get back to work, they were focusing outside of themselves and not getting entrenched into the mental and emotional stuff that comes from being hurt and not having our physical body work the way we want it to.

[00:17:10.370] - Pat Sheveland
Yeah. So you reached out to me because you're like, I think I want to inspire people. I want to help people, maybe sharing my journey. What might that look like for you? I know you may not have it all figured out, but what might that look like? What's your dream?

[00:17:25.370] - Ken Gildow
There is recovery after a stroke for a lot of people. I know every stroke is a little bit different, excuse me, but I was lucky with my stroke because I do have my memory and I am able to communicate as well. But my journey has been lucky so far because I'm able to walk, I'm able to talk, I'm able to communicate, and I'm able to do things. I've finally been able to repair a door, put door knobs on. That seems like a little accomplishment, but to me, it's a bigger accomplishment. And I was depressed for many days because I couldn't fix the toilet, but I finally did get it fixed.

[00:18:13.000] - Pat Sheveland
So it just makes.

[00:18:13.930] - Ken Gildow
Me a lot harder.

[00:18:15.180] - Pat Sheveland
High ten on that. And you say that if you were lucky, I would challenge you on that. You work for this. You chose life. And when you chose I'm going to move forward in this you chose to do the work. I'm sure many times when you were going to therapy or occupational therapy, physical therapy, there were times that you would just want to say, The hell with this. It's not working. I can't move my arm. I can't hold on to something. My voice is not... I'm only getting a few words out, or I can't get the words out that's in my brain to come out my mouth. But you continued to move forward on that. What was your guiding light? What was your inspiration?

[00:19:00.970] - Ken Gildow
I think it was family, mostly.

[00:19:03.550] - Pat Sheveland
I just want to tell everybody, Ken was our engineer while we were getting on the Zoom call.

[00:19:10.360] - Ken Gildow
It was for the family. It inspired me to live on my one of my son and my daughter, my wife, they're my biggest inspiration.

[00:19:21.400] - Pat Sheveland
Absolutely. It's all about love, so much love. They love you so much that they're like, We want you here with us. That energy of being enveloped in love and a family who cares is an amazing healing bomb.

[00:19:36.320] - Ken Gildow
I do want to tell my wife thank you and all the nurses that help.

[00:19:40.740] - Pat Sheveland
Ken's been there through thick and thin. This is part of being a family. For some of you that are listening, you're going to say, Oh, that's fine. He's got a wife, he's got kids. My family, I'm a stranger of my family, or I don't have someone around me. But I would challenge those of you who are feeling that way and in that despair to go find your own tribe. It may not be immediate family members, but I bet if you looked around your life, there's a couple of people that you can reach out to. There's a couple of people that you can create your circle of healing and to do that, because when we sit out there, we're human beings and we're meant to be social creatures. We're meant to have relationships. If you happen to be sitting out there and you're going, Yeah, that's great for Ken. He's got family, he's got that support system. I don't have that. I would encourage that you start looking around and take away from this video one little homework exercise. Take a look around you and just think about who's someone that they do reach out to me.

[00:20:46.390] - Pat Sheveland
And if it's just two people, just reach out to them and have the courage to ask them if they will be a part of your tribe, if they will be part of your support network. And most people are going to say, absolutely, I would love to be a part of your support. I'm honored that.

[00:21:01.860] - Ken Gildow
You asked. That's very true. I know I've had a lot of support from friends and family, and I haven't heard it from people that have reached out to me since I've had this stroke, and I really.

[00:21:14.000] - Pat Sheveland
Appreciate it. Yeah, it boys you up to, I'm going to keep moving forward. From where you were at in November, were you able to walk? You said that you weren't able to walk or talk immediately after.

[00:21:27.500] - Ken Gildow
I lost the use of my right leg and my right side. A gain, I faked it. I tried to walk, but I fell down many times. So I did go to a walker, and then I finally did get off of that.

[00:21:44.820] - Pat Sheveland
So there's a humbleness, a little bit of humbleness to like, okay, it's not about how I looked, it's about what the end game is.

[00:21:52.550] - Ken Gildow
If I.

[00:21:53.110] - Pat Sheveland
Keep falling, I'm not going to heal.

[00:21:55.920] - Ken Gildow
Go ahead. Yeah. This happened when we were shutting our cabin down for the winter, and I was able to luckily get out of the hospital and shut the cabin down. But again, I was the person that dictated everything to be done and relied on friends and family to shut our cabin down. I'm really appreciative with that as well because I couldn't help but I could at least tell people what to do and how to.

[00:22:23.990] - Pat Sheveland
Do it. You became the general contractor. You couldn't physically do it, but you were able to, Okay, these are all the things that we need to do. I think that is just so important is sometimes our ego gets in the way. We're embarrassed because we maybe can't do what we've done before. That's pretty common to like, I'm strong, I'm not used to leaning into people for help and to be able to have the courage to do that.

[00:22:55.440] - Ken Gildow
Is important. I was the person that used to help people all the time, not to be helped, but you learn to accept help pretty quickly in this situation.

[00:23:04.660] - Pat Sheveland
You learn to accept help. That seems like that's one of the key things here. Learn to accept help. Fake it till you make it. Because our mind does dictate what our body is going to do. Faking it till you make it, all of a sudden your body is starting to listen to your mind, Okay, I'm going to do this. And leaning into people, into their love and support when.

[00:23:28.630] - Ken Gildow
It's tough. Good humor, it's felt a lot. My wife and I play stroke or man, and it's usually man now, but it was stroke before. But now it's mostly man.

[00:23:40.350] - Pat Sheveland
So tell me, give me an example of what that would be.

[00:23:44.460] - Ken Gildow
Well, just driving down the road and she might say she loves me or something, and I might say I have to fix the toilet or fix the door or whatever, and she would say, Man.

[00:23:55.290] - Pat Sheveland
I love it. I love it. Yeah. You can't lean into this stroke all the time. It's like, okay, you were doing that before you had your stroke, so you can't blame your stroke on that one. That's correct. I know even with my husband, it's been 30 years, almost 30 years. It'll be 30 years this November. But there are some things that I wonder, is that man or stroke? I love that. I'm going to have to start playing that game with him because there are some things. But we had only been married three weeks and it was probably a lot of that was who he was before it happened, so we can't blame the stroke. But what I see with him, Mike him, is that if he gets extremely tired, his eye might wander a little bit, the one eye. But he went back to work. Well, of course, I worked for a company called RTW, returned to work. So I had him back to work as quickly and light duty as we could. He was basically counting, I think, screws and bolts and that type of thing. But it was getting him back four hours a day to at least do something and engage with other people.

[00:24:59.850] - Pat Sheveland
And his trajectory was pretty fast too. And then he plateaued and there would be frustrations. But then he kept moving forward on it. And that's the other thing is get the help. I'm going to go back to what we talked about. You can was a little stubborn, I'll go tomorrow. They may have been able to do some of that before. They might not have been. My can, I took him in because literally I don't even know how we got him into the car. And I got him to the emergency room in this little town in Northern Minnesota, but it was a small town in Northern Minnesota. His blood pressure skyrocketed for two days. The nurse and me was like, You guys have to get this under control or he's not going to come out of it. They finally ambulance him to a major neurologist in Fargo that was like 100 miles away, took him by ambulance. And it was then where everything fell into place and they got the blood pressure under control. So it took a few days, but he recovered. I would say probably, if I asked him, he's probably 85 to 90 %.

[00:26:06.050] - Pat Sheveland
And most of it happened pretty quickly. But that was one of the deepest despair. And he and I probably had a few fights. I don't know if you and Kim did, but there were times when he went into his pity party and I'm the spouse thinking, Oh, no, you're not going to be sitting here laying in bed feeling all sorry for yourself. That isn't going to happen. But that actually, we also have those dynamics. Not that we don't care, but the caregiver also has the emotions, too. And how do you talk.

[00:26:35.460] - Ken Gildow
Through it? And this is not just traumatic for myself. It's traumatic for McKin, my wife, and for my kids and friends.

[00:26:43.410] - Pat Sheveland
As well. But then when we all band together and just like, Okay, we're going to get through this, we know that that's when we get through it. But it's okay also to have a pity party at times. It's okay to feel sad and all feelings are okay. And for my husband, as I look back, it was okay that I got mad at him. It was also okay that he sat there and he felt sorry for himself. We needed to go through those emotions because that's part of the learning the resiliency and learning how to bounce forward in the very challenging time. This has been wonderful. I just so appreciate. I just want to go back. You just finished this beautiful trip. That's why we delayed recording because in November, your whole right side was not doing what it wanted to do. You were scared, you were depressed, all of that. Here it is. It's March. So a few months after the fact, less than six months after the fact, probably, you went on a huge cruise, visited five countries. You and your wife, Kim, had an extraordinary time just living life, enjoying it. That's an inspiration.

[00:27:54.890] - Ken Gildow
And that was my goal was to make this trip. And it was a treat for myself, I guess, to be able to do that after the hard work with therapy and walking and everything that I've gone through. And that's the way I had to look at it, I guess, as well. And it was an amazing time. A t trip of a lifetime.

[00:28:18.890] - Pat Sheveland
And yeah, rewards. We do well with a reward system and putting something out there that we can work towards a goal. And when we get to that goal, that's the reward. And it could be anything. But boy, having something to look forward to is so important because it gives us hope. It gives us hope like there's more than what is going on today, and I'm going to work towards that. And every day, even when it doesn't feel like you're probably making significant progress, if you looked at where you were the week before and you really did analyze it, you would see, yeah, that was a little better. Yeah, I went from not being able to fix the toilet to being able to fix the toilet. I went from not being able to hang onto a screw to be able to hang on to a screwdriver and screw in a doorknob. Those are big things.

[00:29:03.980] - Ken Gildow
It was a big thing. A lot of stuff, I'm faster at typing now, faster at writing, and I see these little improvements, and I'm actually grateful for them. I'm glad to see that I can see some improvements. But it did seem like I was plateauing, which was depressing for a while. But then I saw myself improving, which is greater than the depression is.

[00:29:28.960] - Pat Sheveland
That's so wonderful. That's wonderful. I'm just so appreciative of you. I think the universe works in the way that it's supposed to. And you reaching out to me, having seen some of my posts and things like that and reaching out to me and saying, Hey, I want to make a difference here. So you talked briefly about, I think I may want to put out a YouTube channel to help people with stroke. Is that something that's still on your radar?

[00:29:55.820] - Ken Gildow
It is. I still have to get the YouTube thing down, but I do have family that's going to help me with that. I would like to be an inspiration to people if.

[00:30:08.010] - Pat Sheveland
I can. You are an inspiration. Not even I would like to. You already are. Thank you. Well, thank you so much, Ken. For everybody who's watching, please take heart to what Ken says. He's living the experience. He's lived the experience. You look at his face and his green and his Irish pride through his wife and just having the gratitude. He's got all those things that really equate to happiness. Having gratitude is one of the things that if we do some gratitude and really think about what we're grateful for and just really infuse ourselves with that, that actually brings happiness. That's how it counteracts that depression at times. And yes, there are times that people are clinically depressed. There's nothing wrong with going and seeking treatment for that. There are medications, like you said for the various things. Everybody is different, so you follow your plan. Ken chose not to do that, and that is working for him. For you, though, if you happen to be listening and you're like, I can't even get out of bed, and there's clinical depression and there are things to help people with that and take full use of that, it doesn't mean that that's forever either.

[00:31:22.030] - Pat Sheveland
Sometimes you may go on some medication just to help you to maneuver through several months of just helping yourself get back on solid footing, especially after a stroke. But do what's right for you. There's lots of holistic things out there. Lots of people that provide holistic yoga therapy and different energy work and things like that. But all of those things can be so helpful. And you just find yours, the right thing for you. And I'll have my contact information, but I'm committed to helping Ken. And I think that I may be speaking out of turn, but if someone contacts me and said, I'd really like to reach out to Ken and just talk to him, is that something you'd be open to? Absolutely. Okay, good. So that's our conversation for today. I just want to thank you, Ken. Hang on here while I stop the recording. But thank you all for listening. And we'd really like to hear your thoughts. Make sure you comment. I'll make sure that I share those with Ken. And when he's ready to roll out his YouTube, you'll hear about it from me and I'll make sure that I have links and I'll be promoting that out to the world because we need people like you, Ken, to really help inspire and for people to know that they're not alone.

[00:32:41.750] - Ken Gildow
I apprfeciate it.

[00:32:42.030] - Pat Sheveland
Thank you.
Contact us:
Cami Thelander: www.bearfootyogi.com
The Confident Grief Coach School: www.healingfamilygrief.com

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