Shownotes:

[00:00:14.390] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Well Hello. I am so excited. Kelly Ruby Hanson is here with me today, and we are going to talk about something that's near and dear to our hearts, death and dying. I know it doesn't sound like that fun of a topic, but it's an important one. I always say we have to stop making death be a dirty word. It happens. We all are going to experience it at some point in our life. So Kelly Ruby Hanson, welcome to this Zoom cast.
[00:00:43.780] - Kelly Ruby Hanson, Guest
Thank you for having me, Pat. I really appreciate being here today.
[00:00:47.140] - Pat Sheveland, Host
I'm really excited to hear more about you. So you are a death doula. First off, what is a death doula? Can you describe what exactly that is?
[00:00:58.970] - Kelly Ruby Hanson, Guest
Yeah, I can do that. I think a lot of people are more comfortable with the terminology of a birth doula. And those people who work in that facet, they help bring you into the world and they support the women in labor. What a death doula is to book into that. So we come in at when someone either has a terminal diagnosis or chronic illness, or they know that death is coming, and we come in and help support them in many ways. Many people think that death is just a religious or a medical event. But we bring in the fact that it's those things in addition to a physical, emotional, mental, and there are practical sides of that, too. So we support people in a holistic type of way.
[00:01:46.340] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Okay, so I want to go deeper into that. But I guess my question is, tell me a little bit about your background and why did you choose to become a death doula? What brought you to this journey?
[00:01:59.010] - Kelly Ruby Hanson, Guest
Well, I worked in surgery for 20 years, and I worked at a level 1 trauma hospital on off shifts. And being in the hospital on off shifts, you can mean doing crazy things. And I experienced losing a lot of patients. I was usually one of the last people in the room and putting people into body bags and just establishing a relationship with the patients at that point because although they had died, being on that team was highly emotional, putting in all that effort and then to lose a patient, I felt like I needed to get somewhere where I could rectify the work that I did for the patient and then losing the patient. So often I would communicate in my head or quietly whisper to them as I would help clean them up and remove lines. And then from that, I feel like being a death doula found me. It was something that I think was already in me by all my family experiences that I had and the way I was raised and not shying away from illness or aging populations and sickness. My grandparents would take me to see their sick siblings. And I experienced a lot of funerals as a kid.
[00:03:11.900] - Kelly Ruby Hanson, Guest
And then as I got older, I had quite a few family members pass away and just watching them and seeing the first major loss not be a good death, seeing everything you don't want to have happen, and then watching my family pivot and make sure that the people following had a good death after that. And then still watching because it's a constant process that we have to learn and practice and communicate about in order to ensure that we are taken care of in the way that we want to be taken care of at the end of our lives. So it brought me to here. I found that I was talking to a lot of people when their loved ones were ill, they didn't know what to do, they didn't know how to feel the complexity of what they were feeling. And through talking to them and guiding them through the process and allowing them, giving them permission, basically, to be angry or be sad, be confused, and to direct them on who they should work with. I don't know how many times in the last couple of years when I've told people, I'm like, You need to talk to the social worker, pivoting people that way.
[00:04:21.060] - Kelly Ruby Hanson, Guest
It just became very clear that I needed to further train in this area to support people with what I was doing. And so I landed in a death doula program.
[00:04:30.420] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Wow, that is so beautiful. And you and I were briefly talking beforehand, but for me, I also was involved in death and dying from the time I was a little girl when my next door neighbor, he was three, I was five, we were playmates and he died. And I didn't understand that. But that really started me on my journey. Maybe all those loved ones and all those people that you've been caring for is going, hey, we're here. It is something that I think some of us are just born into. And we get a comfortableness and people think that's a little bit weird, but I actually feel and I would imagine you do, I can sense that with you, we have a comfort level and it's an honor to be with someone as they are transitioning and to do it with dignity and respect and then to be there for their family members. So it is a holistic approach of really caring for everybody from the person who is in the death and dying stage, supporting their family, and then helping them to actually take those last breaths. And I feel like I was a natural born doula.
[00:05:40.360] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Doulas weren't a thing back in the day, but it is so beautiful that you have this ability to go and then share it. So talk to me a little bit about... You started out about this holistic approach. Can you walk me through being a death doula through a case and share with us, what do you do? What is your role in this and how do you bring in this holistic approach?
[00:06:10.320] - Kelly Ruby Hanson, Guest
Well, it usually starts when someone is faced with a situation that they never want, they never ask for this. And that brings in a lot of pregrief because everything that they know is the sin. And naturally, when we're in that situation, we need support. And not everybody knows that a doula, what we are, that we're there, that we can support people. But they'll go to seek out hospice, or they'll seek out their pastor, or their chaplain, and start to get that established and see if that meets their needs. And for a lot of people, that does fine. But what a doula can do is seamlessly work with these people, too, on this team. And it's my take on being a doula is broadening the team and adding more layers of support for a person because religious caregivers don't always advocate properly on the medical side for the person. It's life at all costs and God is going to take care of you. But there are things that happen in between that they may not understand or know how to support. And same for the limitations with a lot of other caregivers. Not everybody's willing to go into hospice.
[00:07:23.030] - Kelly Ruby Hanson, Guest
They're afraid of that. They're afraid of these terms because they think it means the end. And what happens is a lot of times once people enter into these systems, they're like, I don't know why I didn't do this. And so what I do as a death doula, does is they allow a person to enter into that space sooner. And what we can do is we can even work with people who are healthy and start to have these conversations earlier because what I have found is if we have these conversations earlier in our lives, we are better able to handle difficulties like situations that we're in right now and then being separated, having great losses within our country, all that turmoil, we can weather that storm a little bit better if we have that muscle exercise. So that's one way to start working with the death doulas it's starting early, going through your death care plan and getting all the necessary paperwork in order. While death doulas, not all of them, it's not a regulated field. So every death doula brings something different to the table, and that's part of the magic. But ensuring that you have your paperwork in order, your legal and your medical paperwork is key to making sure that your wishes are met.
[00:08:37.660] - Kelly Ruby Hanson, Guest



That's a great starting point. That's easy. People know it. They know it needs to happen. But then we start to work in and talk about what are your comfort? What has brought you comfort when you've been sick in the past? What does home mean to you? Because so many people say, I want to die at home. Okay, well, that's great. But is it physically possible? Is your house set up so that we can actually make that happen? Is there the financial aspect of it? Is it going to be feasible to pay for that and get the supplies needed? And if not, how can we make the facility or environment that you end up in as home life? Because usually people have general ambiance and feelings and certain things that make their home home. So what I try to do is identify those things with what makes you comfortable, what makes you physically, you're ill, what makes your home comfortable to you? What do you like a breeze coming through a window? These little type of nuances that a lot of other people on the care team don't have time for because they have so many other things that they're working on, which is necessary.
[00:09:43.540] - Kelly Ruby Hanson, Guest
And then we move to talking about emotional and mental areas of this because in my experience, a lot of times when people are gravely ill, people who are sitting with and supporting that person are overly positive. You talk about death, they're like, Oh, you're going to be fine. You're going to be fine. And whereas a death duola actually allows that to happen and lets the person be sad, which doesn't always happen. People like positive emotions. They have a hard time with difficult negative emotions. But we allow those conversations and try to get a person through it. It may be where they land and they stay, but it's death and dying. It's there. That's part of it. It's the full range in the full circle of the human experience. And then another big thing that I emphasize with people as part of the holistic view is how are your people going to carry you forward? Because that's one of the great fears when people die is that they're going to be forgotten. So how do we ensure that your people are going to carry you forward? And that's another thing that I believe you start early in practice often, which is storytelling.
[00:10:53.780] - Kelly Ruby Hanson, Guest
You teach your family members how to tell stories by telling them stories. You gift them this practice. And then when you are gone, they carry you by the stories that they tell about you. It's just like sitting here, you and I, we can share our loved ones that we've lost and make them feel like they're actually in the room by the stories that we tell. And I think that's a part that people do naturally when they lose a loved one. But it's a craft that we can practice and actually emphasize. And it would be a way to bolster grief. And also for the person who's experiencing dying to process their life and get to a place where they're at the realization that this was good, this was good. Even the bad part.
[00:11:38.540] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Were good. That they mattered. Yeah, that.
[00:11:40.030] - Kelly Ruby Hanson, Guest
They mattered.
[00:11:40.600] - Pat Sheveland, Host
That they mattered. But they made a difference.
[00:11:43.500] - Kelly Ruby Hanson, Guest
So it's definitely a little more involved and a little more... It's not talk therapy, but it is conversation, and oftentimes courageous conversation where we will ask questions instead of just talking to somebody. I think one of the big things is that people who are experiencing a significant medical change or their death is imminent, they have questions to ask. And a lot of times the people who are sitting with them, we'll just give them answers. But really what they need is, they need someone to come in their questions with questions so they can give a voice to what it is they're feeling and experiencing. And I think that's where the patience and grace of a death doula serves very well. And then there's all the rituals that can be brought into it, too, depending on the person's comfort level and their wishes. It brings a whole bag of trick that's not there for a lot of people and that they don't even know it's this. So that is a wonderful gift at a very difficult moment in life.
[00:12:49.910] - Pat Sheveland, Host
What a support. I'm just thinking as you're talking, if I had not been the person that I was, my mother lived with us. And I'm a registered nurse by background. And I've been around death and dying. And I coach grieving parents and other people who are grieving the death after the death of their loved one. So I'm comfortable around that space, like we talked about earlier. But as I think about my mother and I have three brothers, and none of them would have had the conversations that I had with my mother. I remember she just passed on January 16 in our home. But I remember a few weeks prior to that, I could see that she was struggling. And I said, mom, do you think the end is coming near? And she said, yes. And she said, but even though you know that and you feel like you're ready for it, there's still some fear. And so my response to that was, what is the fear? Is it the fear of the actual dying process, the physical process, or is the fear of the unknown after you die? And she said it is the fear of the actual dying process.
[00:14:02.210] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Well, then I could assure her that, you know what, I'm going to be here. My goal is to make you as comfortable as possible. But I think of all the families, and I belong to a lot of Caregrip or Facebook groups. And people are not equipped to have those conversations. So to have a death doula, someone like yourself to come in and be integrated in and helping the family, because my brothers would have never had. They were the ones that are like, Oh, everything's fine. Or they would just sit and not know what to say and get uncomfortable if I brought up something when my mom was sitting there because they're like, Well, she's sitting right here. And it's like, Yes, because this is a conversation that we need to have with her. So what you're doing is such a priceless gift to families and to those that are in the process of dying to create it as an ease in a way of, like I said, it's such an honoring. You had mentioned, number one, I love the courageous conversations. I've not heard that term before, and I love that. So I'll probably steal that in the future at some point.
[00:15:10.000] - Kelly Ruby Hanson, Guest
Together with that, creating courageous conversations together.
[00:15:15.510] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Yes. But you said that probably every death doula, because you're all your own people, bring a certain magic. So what would you say is Kelly's magic? What do you bring that might be different than other death duolas or other support people that are surrounding the family and the dying?
[00:15:37.840] - Kelly Ruby Hanson, Guest
I think one of my biggest things that I offer to people and that brings people comfort is my calm presence. The operating room, I was always one of the people who could calm down a very intense situation. But the other thing is that I speak the language of medicine and I understand what is happening. But then I also am in tuned to these other small things that are going on, changes in energy and emotion in people, the subtleties that happen between humans when they're interacting. So it's like I dance with science and the medical language and that knowledge. But then I also dance with this other that happens when you are in that space of dying and grief because there are so many emotions and unsaid things that are there. And being able to blend those two areas together and provide comfort and support for the caregivers or for the actual person who's dying is a unique experience that they don't often get. A lot of times it's one or the other or none at all. People don't know what to do.
[00:16:51.080] - Pat Sheveland, Host
I love that you're dancing. So you're dancing in science and you're dancing in the spirit and the energy. And so it's a dance. And you're bringing people into that dance with you. That's so beautiful. So why do people need to be trained? Why would it be important for someone to have what you did, you went in and you had a natural gift. I have a natural gift. I think some of us are just put on this Earth for that. But there's some, I would think, some very important aspects. And so talk to me about the training and why you believe that really is a very important aspect when people are thinking about, I might want to get a hold of a death doula. Have they been trained in this?
[00:17:40.380] - Kelly Ruby Hanson, Guest
Well, I think one of the main reasons why it's important to be trained as a death doula, which before I go further with that, I think everybody has the capability of doing this. It's in all of us. But the thing is that although we each carry a piece of this, we're not taught in our lives. These experiences of death and grieving and sickness and aging are kept from us. They're closeted away. And so we don't develop the skills of how to do these type of things and support people this way and even get through it ourselves because no one has shown us. And I am constantly telling people that we learn how to die by watching those who have died in our lives. We also learn how to support those people by watching it. And so many of us haven't had those experiences until we're faced with. So by training to do this work, number one, it increases your ability to live fully in your life if you appreciate things like no other. And you also have a deep understanding of yourself and other humans, and in a non judgmental, open way. But with the training, you start to rethink things that you've always thought you were solid in and be open to experiences and other people's ways of being, which is really helpful because the things that come up at a person's deathbed, they're not always comfortable.
[00:19:07.770] - Kelly Ruby Hanson, Guest
They're not always healed. They're not always... There are problems that come up. With death and dying and grieving, a lot of negative emotions can be there. A lot of grief that we've had, unresolved issues in a relationship, unresolved anything, experiences, unmet expectations, and that can all come up. But if you have someone who has the awareness that these issues will come up, that this is going to be present at this point in time, then that person can gently take you by the hand, either physically or not physically, spiritually, so to speak, and be there for you and allow you to have these moments. And even being a death doula, you also learn to understand that there are things that happen at the bedside that are not quantifiable, the language that comes out, the gibberish that's spoken, and just allowing space for that instead of dismissing what that person is experiencing. And it's just a gift that the training provides as far as the perspective that you gain and the confidence that you gain because it's all a known. Even though I'm trained and I've done this work for a while, it's still a known. Every experience is different and there's nothing…
[00:20:24.500] - Kelly Ruby Hanson, Guest
We can talk about timelines and physical changes that are going to happen and changes in breathing. Every person and every person's dying experience brings something new and different that's unique to that individual. And so by having the training and the understanding, you can be with it. You can sit with it and support it. Because for the people who are family members, this is new. This is new. So as being a death doula, you're teaching them and guiding them that this is doable. This doesn't have to be horrible. And it's something we're all going to experience. So let's be as gentle with it as we possibly can.
[00:21:02.720] - Pat Sheveland, Host
That's so beautiful a couple of things, two things. The first one is I am a certified celebrant. And so my belief is that it is so important that we go in when it is time after the death has occurred. Then we start on that real journey of grief. We've been pre grieving, but now we stepped into the whole emersion of grief of that loved one. And you talked about a lot of things arise. We bring so much stuff to our table of grief, our history, our belief systems, any traumas, dramas that went on with our family members, all of that just gets plopped on this table of grief. And I know that for myself, being a certified celebrant, my goal is I want to make sure that that family is able to step on this path of grief in the best way possible. The best way, because I know I've experienced where that ceremony didn't go so great. And it's still 30 years later after my dad died, my family and I are still like, Remember when that happened? And it just colored our experience. And as a death doula, what I'm hearing you say is you actually are going in and making sure that that experience right up to that time of death before that person is handed over to whatever their ceremony, celebration, whatever the family is going to choose to do, that you are also creating that for the family, ongoing, for the loved one who is dying and making that transition, but also helping the family in their transition to make it the best possible way to step into this journey grief because grief is necessary. We have to go through that. If we don't, we have failed grief and all kinds of stuff can account for that. So I wanted to bring that up because I could just see that what a transition. To have someone like you working with a family and all of that and then transitioning. I would love to see that for the clients that come to me to do the services and that type of thing. Or the grief work that I do after, if they had that preparation, it would be a good foundation for people in their grieving process.
[00:23:23.060] - Pat Sheveland, Host
So I have two questions for you. So the first one is, what would you say are the key characteristics to make a great death doula? What would you say are the key characteristics? And let's start with that one.
[00:23:35.680] - Kelly Ruby Hanson, Guest
That's a great question. I think what I look for people who are interested in becoming a death doula or doing the training, because it's something that you can train for, but you don't have to do it as work. So you can do it as preparation for yourself and for your loved one or as work. I think one of the biggest things is that you have to be open minded and realize that because one of the biggest learning curves I have is although I say I'm for everyone, not everybody wants to work with me. Some people want specific religious contacts. Some people, they need and want certain things and you have to be open and allowing of that to happen. The other key thing is that you have to be a good listener. Listening is paramount. Asking questions is another thing. You have to be able to hear what someone's saying and find the question in the statement and open it up a little bit more for them.
[00:24:36.030] - Pat Sheveland, Host
And hear what they're not saying, too, right?
[00:24:38.590] - Kelly Ruby Hanson, Guest
Yes. It really helps to be able to see what they're saying in their fine movement and learn what different body language can communicate, like a furrowed brow or itchy and fidgety type of behaviors. And then I think another thing is just being willing to be in difficult situations, not running away, not masking over those difficult situations. You don't have to be a medical professional or a legal expert or even spiritual or religious to do this type of work. It's something that, like I said before, it's within all of us. And learning the skills of being a death doula will only improve the skills in your current relationships in life because it translates so well. So I think the biggest thing that's key to being a deaf doula is being open to allowing yourself grace in the human experience.
[00:25:38.860] - Pat Sheveland, Host
That's beautiful. So you are writing, you're in the process of writing a book. Yes. And who is this book? Because is it about becoming a death doula? Explain to me a little bit about the book. I know you're just right in the process and you and I met because we belong to the same author mentorship and Mastermind programs. But talk to me a little bit about what's your hope with this book? Who do you want to reach? Because what's your dream? What's your dream of really taking this, your role as a death doula and bringing it out into the world?
[00:26:14.960] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Well, I think the one thing that I always tell people is that if life works out the way it's supposed to, I'm going to leave the Earth before my children do. So I won't be here to ensure that they get the type of care and comfort that I would like them to have when they are on their deathbed. So in order for me to provide that for them, I need to train the world on how to treat them. So it starts now with getting as many people willing and open to having these conversations and to learning a little bit or a lot about these experiences. And the people that I'm mostly looking for, like I said, I'm for everybody. I'll teach everybody. I'll talk to anybody about it. But not everybody's open to that. So the people that I'm looking for currently is people who are interested. Something is drawing them to the terminology, death doula, and the work. They may have loved ones that are getting up there in age and having some health issues, or they may have lost some people in their lives that make them think that this could have gone better, and how could maybe I help this go better next time?
[00:27:25.270] - Kelly Ruby Hanson, Guest
Those are the first wave of people that I'm looking for. And usually my experience right now is women. I think men would bring a lot to the table, too. It's not a gender specific role. Like nursing, for a long time, nurses were primarily women. And now we see a lot more men in the field. And I think it allows space for them to be more fully human if they can do these things, too. But my hope is at some point to increase the language of this death and dying and being open to it to the medical community, too. Because being a member of a health care team, unless you're working hospice or oncology or specific units where people are lost a lot, we are unspokenly trained to adhere to life at all costs. And when we lose somebody, I just remember coworkers saying, people shouldn't die in a hospital. And I was like, people come to a hospital because they're sick and they are dying. I don't understand the disconnect. But my hope is to start with people who are just interested and who want to learn and share these gifts with their community and their loved ones and then open it up and start to change the conversation in the medical community and give people permission for a broader range of experiences when it comes to this school.
[00:28:45.650] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Yeah, because you don't get it in medical school. I mean, you get the Elizabeth Kubler Rossy, so the stages of grief. This is the Maslow's hierarchy of needs and all of those things. But I know for myself, because I specialize in helping parents who are grieving the death of a child, there's not a lot of people out there that are, number one, comfortable even if they deal in grief. And number two, they just haven't had the training. And I always say that it's my clients who actually created my program. Right. Because that's who we're learning from. And so then they are my wisdom keepers. They're the ones that showed me. I just was the scribe and brought it together in a program in a packaged way. And I think that's what I'm hearing you say is that through all of your clients and their families, you have taken all this knowledge and your certification so that you learn some of the background and some of the more concrete things that we need to all be aware of from the psychosocial, behavioral, spiritual, physical, all of those realms. But then you're putting it together so that you can share this with people so that they can do it in their own families.
[00:30:08.560] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Or if they want to add on to their own professional, like you said, you're a surgical tech, right? And decided I want to have this in my wheelhouse, have this in my toolbox so that I can be able to support those. So what a beautiful offering in the world. And I would believe that even people might have heard of birth doulas, but there's a lot of people out there. So I am so grateful that you sat down with me and helped open eyes into what is all this about. And we can take this and share this video out there so that other people can understand what the heck is a death doula? What the heck is a death doula? And for some, it's going to spark some interest, like, oh, that sounds interesting. And others like, I don't know. I don't know about this. But then after seeing your... You do have this very calm presence. I can see where... I was just imagining just having someone like you and my mom was dying upstairs. What a great support that would have been for me and my family to have someone.
[00:31:15.350] - Kelly Ruby Hanson, Guest
And we had done the hospice route.
[00:31:17.220] - Pat Sheveland, Host
My mom graduated from hospice on two separate occasions because she got better. So that's the other thing you had mentioned that people hear hospice and they're so frightened. But people do graduate from hospice. It's possible. It's not always for the imminent death. In our state, I don't know if it's in every state, but it's if they think someone may die within the next six months. And then sometimes people rally and they graduate like my mom did, and then would live for years after that. But having someone that has these conversations to prepare us, because once someone dies, we're still not prepared. I've been grieving the death of my mom for a couple of months, and I had to go deep and just honor myself and be kind to myself about... Even though you have the knowledge. So having a professional or a family member who's been educated in this is just a beautiful gift to the world. So how could people reach you, Kelly? What's a good way for them to reach you so that if they just want to have... I'm assuming that you'd be more than willing to have a conversation with them and share a little bit about what you have going on and what's going on.
[00:32:30.940] - Kelly Ruby Hanson, Guest
With them? Well, I think the easiest way right now is through my Facebook page, which is Your Local Death Doula. And then as I'm completing my book, I'll have other ways. But that's the easiest, most concise way. My email is a little tricky right now.
[00:32:49.020] - Pat Sheveland, Host
So Your Local Death Doula. Awesome. I will get on that page after we hang up here, but I'll put that in the show notes here so that people have that capability. And I will put in your email address, if that's okay, because we got that figured out here.
[00:33:05.900] - Pat Sheveland, Host
It's better to see it written down rather than speak it.
[00:33:09.560] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Yeah, absolutely. Or people can copy and paste it and reach you that way. Well, I am so honored and I thank you. It's a joy getting to know you. We're like twin souls here just doing the work that we're brought here to do. So thank you for the gift that you're giving the world.
[00:33:29.780] - Pat Sheveland, Host
Yeah.. And thank you for the work that you're doing, too. All very important stuff.
[00:33:34.260] - Pat Sheveland, Host
All right. Thanks, everybody. So again, Kelly Ruby Hanson, go to Facebook to Your Local Death Doula. Check her out there. And I'll make sure that I get her email address also in the show notes. So thanks a lot. I'll talk to you soon. Bye.


Additional Informations:

For more information on Kelly's work, please visit her FaceBook page at: Your Local Death Doula https://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=100084453671418.
To learn more about Pat Sheveland, please visit: www.HealingFamilyGrief.com   Get my free grief ebooks, "How Do I Survive? 7 Steps to Living After Child Loss" or "Living Life in the Middle: The Caregiver's Guide to Healing, Hope, and Harmony through Multigenerational Living"  here: https://www.healingfamilygrief.com/

Learn more about Pat Sheveland: https://www.healingfamilygrief.com/about-me/ Schedule a Chat with Pat coaching exploration call: https://www.healingfamilygrief.com/book-an-appointment

#griefsupport #howtohelpsomeonewithgriefContact us:
Cami Thelander: www.bearfootyogi.com
The Confident Grief Coach School: www.healingfamilygrief.com

Ver todos los episodios