In this episode of the Life Science Effect, host Steve Vinson interviews Denise Bachman, Chief Operating Officer of BPM Associates. Denise shares insights into BPM Associates, a life sciences consultancy known for its unique approach and core values. She discusses her journey as a project manager and the importance of building a supportive company culture. Denise emphasizes the significance of high-trust relationships and effective teamwork in achieving project success. She also recounts a challenging project experience, highlighting the impact of leadership and resistance to change on project outcomes MUSIC: Acid Jazz-Kevin MacLeod used under the Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 International License TRANSCRIPT: 00:00:01 Steve Vinson You are about to experience the life science effect season 2 brought to you by our presenting sponsor, BPM associate. 00:00:15 Steve Vinson Extraordinary people. Relationships that matter. 00:00:18 Steve Vinson Important change for a better world. 00:00:21 Steve Vinson The joy of belonging. Life, science, leadership. 00:00:32 Steve Vinson This is season 2, episode 5 of the Life Science Effect, and another special episode. 00:00:35 I. 00:00:40 Steve Vinson Promised we have Denise Bachman on the show today. 00:00:45 Steve Vinson Is a great project manager. 00:00:48 Steve Vinson And also, is the Chief operating officer of a wonderful company. 00:00:54 Steve Vinson Bpm Associates welcome to the show, Denise. 00:00:57 Steve Vinson Anything else you want to say about yourself by way of introduction? 00:01:01 Denise Bachman No, that's that's. 00:01:03 Denise Bachman Let's just have a conversation and. 00:01:05 Steve Vinson Fantastic. Yeah. 00:01:07 Denise Bachman OK. 00:01:07 Steve Vinson Well, let's just start with your story. You know, talk about BPM associates, what the company stands for, what they do. 00:01:15 Steve Vinson What does BPM do? 00:01:18 Denise Bachman So BPM Associates is a life sciences consultancy. 00:01:24 Denise Bachman That's not anything particularly unique, but what makes us unique is that we are different by design. And when I say that I talk about we took the time to really think about building a company that was going to be different. We defined our core purpose, our core values. 00:01:39 Denise Bachman We defined a shared success program which is really a heavy reinvestment into our employees. 00:01:46 Denise Bachman All of this comes together to make us. 00:01:48 Denise Bachman Exceptional project managers and deliver great service to our clients. 00:01:54 Steve Vinson Right. I 100% agree with that. 00:01:58 Steve Vinson As as will be no surprise to you or anyone who listens to the show. 00:01:58 Denise Bachman Judge. 00:02:02 Steve Vinson So what about before? 00:02:04 Steve Vinson What led up to you deciding to join in on this journey, and maybe some tidbits from your past life that would that led up to joining the company? 00:02:16 Denise Bachman Sure. So I. 00:02:18 Denise Bachman You've already mentioned I've been a project manager practising many years, pretty much the bulk of my career and it's been in life sciences, but from very early on I just always had a desire to be in a position where I could. 00:02:31 Denise Bachman Help mold and shape the culture of a company and structure it so that people could always be learning, working to become the best version of themselves they'd ever like to be, supporting them and making sure that they were aligned with work that they would. 00:02:48 Denise Bachman Really sell. 00:02:49 Denise Bachman As you know, Steve, I'm always saying a happy. 00:02:51 Denise Bachman I want to see people be in their happy place and they get to find they get to define what that. 00:02:56 Denise Bachman That's not something I defined for them, but I'm certainly happy to help coach them and guide them and mentor them to get there. 00:03:02 Denise Bachman So for years and years and years, I've wanted to do this all the years that I've been invested in being a project manager and delivering to clients, that certainly helped me refine my vision and my skills and my experiences all come together to land me where I am. 00:03:18 Steve Vinson Any particular stories that come to mind are that you like to tell that illustrate. Illustrate all that. 00:03:27 Denise Bachman Well, that's a great question. I can think of 1 project in particular that was not a good experience. Unfortunately in my long career, I really only have that one that always stands out. There were a lot of things that didn't go well. 00:03:38 Mm. 00:03:41 Denise Bachman Was working for a small consulting company that. 00:03:45 Denise Bachman Leadership would. 00:03:47 Denise Bachman Was not supportive when things weren't going well, they weren't supportive. 00:03:50 Denise Bachman You were left on your own and I always thought that that was just unprofessional and an inappropriate way to treat your employees. 00:03:57 Denise Bachman That always stuck with me. 00:03:59 Denise Bachman The other thing that stuck with me consistently across my projects is how often I've been told. 00:04:07 Denise Bachman I've developed high trust relationships and it's really about working with people, so you can have the best tools, the best schedule, the best, everything, all the funding in the world. But if you don't have people and you don't treat them well, you don't have a good outcome. 00:04:23 Denise Bachman So I always invested heavily in relationships and getting teams to come together. 00:04:28 Denise Bachman To get stuff done, that's always been my elevator speech. 00:04:32 Denise Bachman So I think the combination of those two things is really representative of what I do. 00:04:33 What's it? 00:04:36 Steve Vinson For sure. 00:04:38 Steve Vinson Yeah, and it shows in your in your work. When you say get stuff done, anything you can share like what is that stuff? 00:04:44 Steve Vinson Know it's interesting about this. 00:04:47 Steve Vinson A lot of people that listen are project managers and some of them aren't even in life sciences, which kind of surprised me. 00:04:54 Steve Vinson But they're like people that want to learn, you know. 00:04:57 Steve Vinson So when you say get stuff done, what kind of stuff? 00:05:01 Steve Vinson Either from a project that went well or didn't go well in your in your prior career. 00:05:05 Denise Bachman Yeah. 00:05:06 Steve Vinson Career. 00:05:07 Denise Bachman So that's a really good question and thanks for allowing me to. 00:05:08 Run. 00:05:11 Denise Bachman When I say get stuff done, it can vary from project to project. But again my key focus was always on bringing a team of people together. 00:05:19 Denise Bachman Usually, to alleviate work that they were doing, that they weren't trained to. 00:05:24 Denise Bachman So my scientists were often working with scientists, healthcare professionals of all kinds, and then they're tasked with being responsible for managing a project. 00:05:34 Denise Bachman Well, Project management is a an industry and a a methodology of its own. 00:05:38 Denise Bachman You can't expect somebody who's not. 00:05:40 Denise Bachman To do it to do. 00:05:41 Denise Bachman Well, when I step into that role, I take over. 00:05:45 Denise Bachman That is my area of expertise when I'm working on a project, they become the space to do what they really are trained to do and things start working well. 00:05:54 Denise Bachman So when I say get stuff done, the project could vary greatly from whatever the deliverable is, whether it's a new software system. 00:06:03 Denise Bachman A remediation project or transformation project. 00:06:07 Denise Bachman The list goes on and on, so that's the output, but for me it was getting everybody working together to get that output where it needed to go. You have to do it. 00:06:18 Denise Bachman Without causing a lot of harm or any harm really to anybody. 00:06:22 Steve Vinson On that project you were talking about where management wasn't supportive. 00:06:26 Steve Vinson Are you able to share what that what the product of that project was? 00:06:31 Denise Bachman So that was a. 00:06:34 Denise Bachman That was I was working in drug safety for a company and they were going through a transformation change, bringing together a couple of different organizations that needed to go from manual paper processing to something electronic. 00:06:49 Denise Bachman There was a lot of resistance in different groups in the organization. 00:06:54 Denise Bachman Actually, the most resistance came from the sponsoring organization itself. So. 00:06:59 Denise Bachman Just. 00:07:00 Denise Bachman Just challenged with people that didn't want to make the change that weren't interested. 00:07:04 Denise Bachman And affecting any change delaying things because that company culture. 00:07:10 Denise Bachman Believed that. 00:07:13 Denise Bachman Consensus meant 100% agreement and really you want to define that ahead of time because 100% gives one person the power to stall a project. 00:07:16 Hmm. 00:07:22 Denise Bachman That's exactly what happened. 00:07:24 Denise Bachman We were delayed by several weeks because one person just simply didn't want to do what needed to be done. 00:07:30 Denise Bachman Well, that created a lot of problems that caused. 00:07:35 Denise Bachman Delays to the project. 00:07:37 Denise Bachman Things got escalated and there was a lot of. 00:07:42 Denise Bachman Harm caused to people who were getting ready to. 00:07:46 Denise Bachman Who really weren't sponsoring the project the way they should have, and it just wasn't handled well. 00:07:54 Steve Vinson Yeah, you and I have the pleasure of being at the, you know, having the amount of experience that we were there when people were transitioning from paper to electronic. 00:08:06 Steve Vinson Records and that was that was a pretty common theme, wasn't it? 00:08:09 Steve Vinson Were resistant to change. 00:08:12 They. 00:08:12 Steve Vinson Didn't understand the electronic records. 00:08:15 Steve Vinson Didn't. 00:08:16 Steve Vinson They were comfortable with their paper, but you know that's a. 00:08:19 Steve Vinson I'm glad you were the project manager in that one, cuz I'm sure that you even though there was harm and things didn't go. 00:08:27 Steve Vinson The way you wanted to, I'll bet there was less harm because of your approach. 00:08:33 Denise Bachman Well, I appreciate that it did get done, but you know the the point about paper to electronic over the life of my. 00:08:36 Yeah. 00:08:40 Denise Bachman I've always said that making that switch is always one of the hardest for people, because once you're on an electronic system, you understand it. 00:08:46 Denise Bachman Easier to transition to another one or to upgrade, but going paper to electronic is very difficult so. 00:08:50 Steve Vinson Needle. 00:08:53 Steve Vinson Yeah. Yeah, it's a great point. 00:08:55 Steve Vinson So then you you have this stellar career. 00:08:58 Steve Vinson There's a hot shot project manager. 00:09:02 Steve Vinson And you find your way to BPM. What's that? 00:09:04 Steve Vinson Tell folks that story how you found your way. 00:09:07 Steve Vinson Bpm and. 00:09:08 Denise Bachman You know well. 00:09:08 Steve Vinson Why you decided to to jump on board here? 00:09:11 Denise Bachman Yes, I did something highly. 00:09:14 Denise Bachman I stepped outside of the life sciences industry for a few months and really regretted it. 00:09:19 Denise Bachman Was not where I. 00:09:20 Denise Bachman I was a fish out of water and I missed all the structure and the compliance and the regulatory requirements. 00:09:28 Denise Bachman And the skills of the people that you work with. 00:09:32 Denise Bachman But also the whole idea of getting products to patients, it just was so much more meaningful to me. 'cause I'd been doing it for such a long time. 00:09:38 Denise Bachman So a mutual friend of ours, Steve, referred me to you and did and had a conversation. 00:09:46 Denise Bachman I met with. 00:09:47 Denise Bachman Talk to him. We thought it would be awhile before something came up. 00:09:51 Denise Bachman And a few weeks later, he called me and had a project. 00:09:54 Denise Bachman So I left what I was doing and drove from South Carolina up to Indianapolis and joined BP. 00:10:02 Steve Vinson Yeah, but I was glad you did too. 00:10:05 Steve Vinson That mutual. 00:10:06 Steve Vinson Another great project manager and educator, project management teachers. 00:10:09 Denise Bachman Yes. 00:10:10 Steve Vinson So I don't have her permission to to give her name out over over the podcast, or I would. Maybe she'll comment down below if you're listening. 00:10:18 Denise Bachman And that would, yeah, yes. 00:10:19 Steve Vinson You know who you are. 00:10:21 Steve Vinson So ever grateful to her for for introducing you. And I thought that was interesting too, that you and I met. 00:10:29 Steve Vinson And you went to a project that I had left that we both ended up deciding was not was not a great environment, although you found a place in even in a company where. 00:10:40 Steve Vinson Where I didn't feel like good project management was valued, you found. 00:10:44 Steve Vinson Found a part of that company where you were able to thrive. I think, right? 00:10:50 Denise Bachman Yeah, I actually worked for them. Left and when I left, I left on good terms. 00:10:54 Denise Bachman I said you're not using me to the best of my. 00:10:56 Denise Bachman So if you make these changes, I'm happy to come back and I did. And I I was able to help them further along with what they were doing. 00:11:04 Steve Vinson Which is awesome. 00:11:05 Denise Bachman Yeah. 00:11:07 Steve Vinson So now you have BPM and that was. 00:11:09 Steve Vinson We're so, you know, I know everybody at BP, miss. Glad you're here. 00:11:13 Steve Vinson What's it? We've grown like crazy in the last few years. 00:11:17 Steve Vinson What's that been like? 00:11:19 Steve Vinson You know, being finally getting to do what you always wanted to do, help build and shape a culture, and now it's growing. 00:11:26 Steve Vinson So what's that been like? 00:11:29 Denise Bachman It's been. 00:11:31 Denise Bachman It's been challenging, exhausting, exhilarating. 00:11:36 Denise Bachman Because as you know, when we were growing this company together, you were on the same journey as. 00:11:40 Denise Bachman But you know we're doing client billable work and trying to grow a company and recruiting the right kind of people and defining those core values and core purpose and putting all the infrastructure in place you need. 00:11:54 Denise Bachman To grow a company. 00:11:57 Denise Bachman In talking to other small business owners, we learned that they did the infrastructure after the fact and that it was very, very difficult for them. 00:12:04 Denise Bachman So I think that's one of the reasons that we're different by design, because we were thoughtful about how we wanted to approach us defining those core values and core purpose in particular. 00:12:13 Denise Bachman Key I think to where we are today. 00:12:16 Denise Bachman We're able to attract the right kind of talent. 00:12:19 Denise Bachman People that are invested in the desire to do all the things I've already talked about and commit to it now. 00:12:26 Denise Bachman Not easy, but we've been able to find committed, passionate people who are willing to work hard, grow and learn. 00:12:34 Denise Bachman And reap the rewards of being in their happy place. 00:12:39 Steve Vinson Yeah. And to your point. 00:12:43 You know. 00:12:44 Steve Vinson It's something I know you and I thought about throughout our. 00:12:47 Steve Vinson Like, why do these small to mid sized consulting companies not practice what they preach? 00:12:52 Steve Vinson You know, we go into a client and we say you need a process for this. 00:12:56 Steve Vinson Need better. 00:12:57 Steve Vinson You need. You know what is your? 00:13:00 Steve Vinson What is your mission? What you know and the answer? 00:13:04 Steve Vinson With the smaller companies was always either. 00:13:06 Steve Vinson Me anyway was. 00:13:08 Steve Vinson Well, we know what we're doing. 00:13:10 Steve Vinson All know why we're. 00:13:11 Steve Vinson We we aren't big enough yet and and even the companies that you and I have networked with. 00:13:16 Steve Vinson With Dave. 00:13:18 Steve Vinson Boy, we wish we had done it sooner, 'cause. We grew like crazy, and now we're trying to play catch up. 00:13:23 Steve Vinson We're building the the train tracks. You know, after we've already passed over the ground. 00:13:28 Steve Vinson I don't know. 00:13:29 Steve Vinson Probably mixing metaphors there, but so yeah, I'm so glad we've done it. 00:13:33 Steve Vinson Was against conventional wisdom even. 00:13:37 Steve Vinson And you know. 00:13:38 Steve Vinson I've always wondered why companies didn't do. 00:13:41 Steve Vinson Like why the smaller to mid size companies didn't define their their visions and their. 00:13:48 Steve Vinson Values and put structure in place. 00:13:50 Steve Vinson I know why it's hard. 00:13:53 Steve Vinson It's really, really difficult. 00:13:55 Steve Vinson And it takes investment. 00:13:59 Steve Vinson So you know you and I working on this stuff is a huge investment that the company's making. If our founder wanted to just take the money, you know, he could not have a Denise or not have a Steve and still kind of have a company, it would. 00:14:13 Steve Vinson Not run as well. 00:14:15 Steve Vinson But it's. 00:14:16 Steve Vinson Big investment so and I'm glad we've done it. 00:14:20 Denise Bachman Oh I am. 00:14:21 Denise Bachman And I think we're seeing the. 00:14:23 Denise Bachman You know, people are happy with what they're doing and we're growing and our clients are happy with what we're doing. 00:14:30 Denise Bachman Have great relationships with our clients because our values and our core purpose align well with them. 00:14:36 Denise Bachman But we actually live up to what we say we're going to do and we respect our values and our vision and our purpose and make sure that we assign people to the right projects so that everybody thrives. 00:14:48 Steve Vinson Do you have a story? 00:14:49 Steve Vinson And I may ask for two stories. 00:14:51 Steve Vinson 1 is when you. 00:14:55 Steve Vinson When you knew that we that the company should not do something because we didn't have aligned values either with the client or with the potential. 00:15:07 Steve Vinson Employee or even an existing employee like like you had to make a decision that maybe from a pure business and profit point of view would not have been the decision to make, but from a values perspective, do you have any stories you can share about that? 00:15:24 Denise Bachman I think we've encountered that before and I I actually, as I'm recruiting people, tell them that we will turn work away if it doesn't align with our values because we are that serious about it. 00:15:34 Denise Bachman It's well worth the investment to do it and do it right. 00:15:37 Denise Bachman Do what you believe in doing, not just say it. 00:15:40 Denise Bachman But yes, we've had. 00:15:41 Denise Bachman We've had some folks in the past who really didn't buy into our values and it became apparent as their. 00:15:49 Denise Bachman With us went on and I don't think they were in a happy place and it was showing, so making the decision to end that relationship, yes, there's a price that comes with it to the business because you may have just lost that if you couldn't replace it. 00:16:05 Denise Bachman But in the end, you're better off. 00:16:07 Denise Bachman I think everybody's better and I hope all the folks that may have left us are much happier with where they are. 00:16:14 Steve Vinson Yeah, that last bit is is another thing that sets you apart. 00:16:19 Steve Vinson From a lot of people I've worked with, is that yeah, you don't just think of it as OK. They're gone. 00:16:26 Steve Vinson They weren't a good fit here. They left. 00:16:28 Steve Vinson And then out of sight, out of mind, you're like, oh, and by the way, they're probably happier too now. 00:16:35 Steve Vinson And you just don't hear that much. And that's one of the things I love about the way you approach things. 00:16:35 Denise Bachman Mm. 00:16:41 Steve Vinson What about the other side? Any recent stories? 00:16:44 Steve Vinson That say like that, you would you would point to and go see it works and this is proof that it works. 00:16:51 Denise Bachman Wow, right. 00:16:54 Denise Bachman Well, we've grown a lot this. 00:16:56 Denise Bachman We've had several new hires and it's really refreshing for the people who are coming in new and seeing a small company grow for the first time in their careers and telling me, wow, you really do. 00:17:08 Denise Bachman Act on the values and the core purpose. 00:17:11 Denise Bachman Actually do what you say you do. 00:17:13 Denise Bachman I've had people nearly in tears because they're so happy. 00:17:18 Denise Bachman I've had people affecting changes in their personal life and their health and their relationships because they've been learning so much about a better way to work and a better way to live. And when I hear those stories just about weekly, I am so humbled by it. 00:17:35 Denise Bachman That to me is proof of our. 00:17:39 Denise Bachman But what we've done is working. 00:17:41 Steve Vinson Man, why wouldn't anybody want to come work for BPM? 00:17:46 Steve Vinson And or work with me VM as a client. 00:17:46 Denise Bachman A lot of people would like that. 00:17:51 Steve Vinson What about the? 00:17:52 Steve Vinson So, OK, we've got, you know, the company has grown to this point and there's always growing pains and and things getting from. 00:17:59 Steve Vinson You know, if when I was talking to Jeremy the founder, you know, getting going from one employee to two was a huge step change and then going from 2:00 to 20 is another, you know, two. Well, two to five was another one. And then you and I come. 00:18:15 Steve Vinson And we go from. 00:18:17 Steve Vinson 5 or 6 to 20. 00:18:18 Steve Vinson Now we're looking to the future from 20 to, you know, whatever the future holds. 00:18:24 Steve Vinson What do you see happening to the professional project management? 00:18:29 Steve Vinson The you know our business, BP, Ms. business specifically, what does the next 5 or so years hold for for this whole thing? 00:18:39 Denise Bachman That's a great question. I'd like to see that we can continue doing what we're doing. 00:18:44 Denise Bachman That means we have. 00:18:45 Denise Bachman We have growing pains, you know, sometimes you get overloaded with. 00:18:49 Denise Bachman So now we're looking to how do we readjust workloads. We can accommodate the growth. 00:18:54 Denise Bachman Till everything catches up. 00:18:57 Denise Bachman I think Project management is in a field that's going to be around for a long, long time. 00:19:01 Denise Bachman I do think as we're starting to learn how to work with AI and project management, I think AI is going to be a great tool. 00:19:08 Denise Bachman But it's just that a tool you still need people. 00:19:12 Denise Bachman Projects don't run themselves. 00:19:14 Denise Bachman AI can't do it for. 00:19:15 Denise Bachman They it can assist and it can make things easier, but it's not going to replace. 00:19:20 Denise Bachman So my belief is still that as long as we always invest in our people and make sure that they're growing and developing the way they want to, we can keep that foundation going. 00:19:30 Denise Bachman Don't see why that has to be limited by. 00:19:33 Denise Bachman Size. It just means that our internal growth in the way we structure things will change as time goes. 00:19:39 Denise Bachman But our core beliefs and our culture should remain the same so that we can continue deliver great service to our clients. 00:19:47 Steve Vinson One of my favorite recent Denise quotes, for those of you that don't know AI is a AI. 00:19:54 Steve Vinson AI is entering every aspect of work in one Microsoft version is called copilot in Denise recently said. 00:20:02 Steve Vinson Hey, it's called copilot, not autopilot. 00:20:05 Steve Vinson Always going to need people. 00:20:07 So. 00:20:07 Steve Vinson To which to which Jeremy? 00:20:09 Steve Vinson That's going to end up on LinkedIn, to which I said you're both right. 00:20:15 Denise Bachman But it's true, a lot of people think that AI is going to replace people, but not in our industry, not for what I'm doing, not not what any of us are doing right now. 00:20:16 It is. 00:20:25 Denise Bachman I think it'll be helpful for the years to come, but I don't think we're close to having it replace people. 00:20:30 Denise Bachman So people to me, are still the key. 00:20:33 Steve Vinson Yeah. And I think the key is figuring out how to work with AI to to do better, to do faster, to do, you know, cheaper. 00:20:45 Steve Vinson And not not assume that AI is going to replace us, but assume. 00:20:48 Steve Vinson That it's gonna. 00:20:50 Steve Vinson It's gonna be something we could work with as a tool, so I completely agree with that. 00:20:56 Steve Vinson So, Denise, thank you for all of. 00:20:59 Steve Vinson Is there anything you were hoping to get to? 00:21:01 Steve Vinson I just didn't ask the right question. 00:21:04 Denise Bachman No, it was nice to be able to talk about BPM and what makes us different and why we're special. 00:21:10 Denise Bachman I do believe we are. 00:21:12 Denise Bachman So I think we covered a lot. 00:21:14 Steve Vinson Awesome. 00:21:15 Steve Vinson So what if somebody wants to learn from the same place you? 00:21:20 Steve Vinson Like, do you have an online resource or a book or something that that you think might benefit the listeners? 00:21:27 Denise Bachman Great. 00:21:28 Denise Bachman So I would say it's lifelong learning, not just not just formal education or my certifications from PMI. 00:21:35 Denise Bachman You certainly can learn from those. 00:21:38 Denise Bachman The experience that you get from watching people working with people and learning from them, learning how to give feedback, learning how to take feedback, paying attention to what works well for you, and knowing that it could be different for somebody else. 00:21:51 Denise Bachman I think all of that is really important. 00:21:53 Denise Bachman Important. And then you know, reading and reading. 00:21:58 Denise Bachman Books can. 00:21:59 Denise Bachman They can be all kinds of books, different kinds of books that make sense for you and for the role that you're in or where you are in your life. 00:22:08 Denise Bachman I. 00:22:08 Denise Bachman This might be. 00:22:09 Denise Bachman I don't do a lot of reading of business books, but I do like to read things that are more people focused, so I just finished a book the other day called Big Panda and Tiny Dragon by James Norbury. 00:22:23 Denise Bachman The beautifully illustrated book. 00:22:26 Denise Bachman An artist and. 00:22:27 Denise Bachman Writer and that just really. 00:22:30 Denise Bachman So like I say, books from all different kinds of areas are interesting to me. 00:22:36 Denise Bachman Helped me develop those people relationships. 00:22:41 Steve Vinson Big Panda and Tiny Dragon by James Norberry. 00:22:44 Steve Vinson We'll put a link to that in the in the show notes. 00:22:44 Yeah. 00:22:48 Steve Vinson I love that because I've learned I I've been lately the last few years reading a lot of science fiction, and I've learned a awful lot about, you know, dealing with people and technology and and that kind of thing, just from science fiction, which. 00:23:04 Steve Vinson Is, you know, it's interesting, right? 00:23:05 Steve Vinson And history books and everything. I just. 00:23:08 Steve Vinson I love it when people talk about like, you know, I. 00:23:11 Steve Vinson I haven't read the latest business book, but here's a great work of fiction or art. 00:23:16 Steve Vinson About art or biography, that really informs who you are as a person. 00:23:20 Steve Vinson Awesome. 00:23:22 Steve Vinson Big Panda and Tiny dragon. 00:23:23 Steve Vinson Can't. 00:23:23 Steve Vinson I have to check that one out. 00:23:26 Steve Vinson All. 00:23:27 Steve Vinson What if somebody wants to get a hold of you? Are you? 00:23:30 Steve Vinson You're active on LinkedIn, right? 00:23:32 Denise Bachman Yes, I. 00:23:33 Denise Bachman You can find me on LinkedIn. VPN has a website as well, so you probably want to put that in and. 00:23:42 Denise Bachman Wants to reach. 00:23:43 Denise Bachman I'd love to hear from him. 00:23:46 Steve Vinson Well, thanks very much. 00:23:46 Replay. 00:23:47 Steve Vinson This has been delightful and look forward to. 00:23:53 Steve Vinson Getting us out there so people can hear your story. 00:23:55 Denise Bachman Well, thank you, Steve. 00:23:56 Denise Bachman Appreciate it. 00:23:58 Steve Vinson For those of you who do want more information about BPM, it's bpm-associates.com. 00:24:05 Steve Vinson And obviously, we're also on LinkedIn and if you want to subscribe to the show, which I encourage you to do, it's the life science effect.com where you can find it on all the podcast things. And don't forget, if you enjoyed this, do all those Internet things. 00:24:20 Steve Vinson Like subscribe. 00:24:21 Denise Bachman Movie. 00:24:22 Steve Vinson Share it with a friend. 00:24:24 Steve Vinson Because we don't want you to miss a single. 00:24:26 Steve Vinson Thank you for listening and we'll talk to you next time.        

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