Update 11th march 2021

This week started with the International Womens Day. #ChooseToChallenge #IWD2021

We wanted to start a new experiment so that's why we started the experiment with this episode.We want to add automated transcription to our posts. Podcasts are a great way to share knowledge but unfortunately people who are deaf or hearing impaired are excluded.What this episode coversThat is not what we want.IntroductionOnce again we are sharing our diversity and inclusion stories. We discuss how women in tech at bol.com encourage inclusion in tech. The idea for this podcast stems from of course the importance of the subject but also from the diversity and inclusion month we have at bol.com. In June and November last year we spoke about diversity and women in tech in the podcast with several guests. Let’s see what the latest developments and insights are, given that there has been a lot of attention to the subject in the world around us in the last weeks.In our opinion, we need to keep having these conversations to progress. So, we will probably share more in future episodes.GuestsNatalia Paratsikidou – Software engineer in the bol.com retail media group (BRMG) domainAnastasija Efremovska – Software engineer in the platform domain and 'best friend of the show'Marloes Kuijper – Data scientist in the assortment domainRaissa Machado – Software engineer working on the select proposition, the bol.com subscription modelMaartje van Denderen – Front-end developer in the area of assortment tooling for partnersNotesTalks during spaces summit 2020:Making Demos great again - MarloesFrom prototype to production. A real-life cloud story - AnastasijaExperience the hive mind through Mob Programming - Natalia; this session is not on Youtube. It was a hands-on session based on the Kata principleEarlier Episodes about Women in Tech:Our speakers during the Women in tech conferenceIntercultural DiversityTranscriptionPlease be aware: the transcription has been produced by an automated process.Thanks.Yeah, do you have this podcast stems from the course, ofcourse, from the importance of the subject, but also from thediversity and Inclusion month we have had both. Com and also inJune and November last year. In both cost we spoke aboutdiversity and women in tech.In several cases. Let's see what are the latestdevelopments and insight, especially given that thereare some other has been a lot of attention for the subjectin the world around us in the last week.Yes, yes, an inclusion is one of the subjects I remember wellfrom our podcasts. Mary was sharing her story about feelingexcluded and the talk she had about inclusion with our formerCEO. And during that interview, but also during the editingagain after it, it gave me the goosebumps. So I'm reallycurious right now how it is inthis talk. And in this talk we want to define in two. So P, X2parts we start first with diversity and inclusion, and inthis case the women in tech them order generic story an to makeit more concrete week off to the second part based on theexamples about the talks during space. Assuming so, baseballtime to introduce the guests.Yeah, and then we have quite a list of guess. I don't thinkthat we ever had to so many guess so so that's I think thatalso stresses the importance of this. So let me first introduceNatalia Paratsikidou, software engineer inthe in the BMG. So that's basically where we selladvertisements on our platform.Yeah, great to be here. I'm really happy and I I was likeI'm on my maternity leave. But I was like I find it reallyimportant to share my experience. So thank you verymuch for inviting.Anastasija Efremovska, she's software engineer, as she saw on herLinkedIn profile that she like to likes to make me breakthings. So I was curious about these lines in the profiles, butif you're if you have listened to the podcasts a lot, then youknow that she was actually in one of our first. I thinkactually the first port costs when our equipment was way lessthan this and we were just starting out so.Yeah, really cool to have you back.Yeah, uh, thank You Beautiful. It's it's great tobe back. It's actually the third time I think theprevious presented part of this.How can I yeah?Best friends of the exactly best Friends of podcasts.Glad to be back, yes.Marloes Kuijper, data scientist in theassortment domain, I know from other teams that there's a lotgoing on in the Serpent domain for data scientist. So great tohave you as well.Thank you very much Peter. Well, thanks for having me. I'm reallylooking forward to this.Raissa Machado, also a software engineer, thisis in the team reptile and it's on the select proposition. So ifI'm correct, the select subscription where we offercertain things to Members forplatform. Yes, yes, that's right. That's me. Hieveryone, very glad to be here and uh, if you're nota member of select please go and buy a subscription.So now we have also posted sponsored content.They collected via the BRG stuff I guess, but we'll talkabout that later and then a last cause guest of today isMaartje van Denderen she's fronted the developer andgiven this chest in education in journalism, think debatingand I will learn a lot during this podcast says we don't.She's look she's working on assortment tooling for ourpartners on the platformwelcome. Yes, thank you very much nice to be here.Great.So, um, yeah.Jim Diversion and Inclusion month. Why is it soimportant in both com.Yes, so the diversity and Inclusion Month is somethingthat came out out of the diversity and inclusion workgroup that has on the lines of 10 people working on this.Nowadays we think it's really important to raise awarenessthroughout the company regarding the topic, so we need to speakabout this and do something that's not like a onetimecampaign but rather a continuous continuous cause that we puteffort and we tried to develop further and further. So that'swhy we're trying to raise awareness throughout thecompany. So that more people can see the importance of thissubject and can also join the group and help us buildsomething more concrete.Can you give an example what we what we did in that month? Well,yes, of course. So the month was divided in four weeks. The firstweek was focused on awareness, so we shared a lot of numbersregarding awareness as a more abstract topics or a generaltopic. And then we will go then into the teams. So we had thewomen in Tech Week. We had the pride Week and the InternationalWeek and for every week we had a small special activity. Soeither a lunch session or a talk of the international.Or kind of like a coffee blind date. We also had the pub questto wrap up the month, which you guys probably heard of. It wasthe first fully online event that we organized. I think wehad close to 400 people joining so it was quite big.And we're really proud of the the month in general, becauseafter that we got a lot of people reaching out, startingthe conversation and just saying, hey, I would like tohelp. How can I help and that's what we look for more people tobecome engaged. And I think we really we really 'cause wereally made him an impact and that was really amazing I I'mreally proud of it.And you said that in the beginning you shared somenumbers. How to spell.com compared to other companies inthe Netherlands? Could you share a little on that? Yes, ofcourse. So I think some numbers we are still below the nationalaverage. So regarding women in tech we were last time that Ichecked 1.5% below the nationalaverage. But women as a whole in the company, we are 41%, sothat's quite an OK number.And, um. Let me see if there are other numbers that I havefrom the top of my head. Maybe I should have prepared better.Turn on.I'm sorry logo.Overall we are not doing a.That bad if we only take the numbers into account, of coursenumbers not always give the full the full answer, right?Exactly because then again, this would be my remark. This is justthe numbers. But that's very different than itfeels sometimes. I can imagine exactly yes.Yes, and also it may be interesting to see that thewomen in tech will Bolt form is so short of around average forthe country, but there's a country in in general, theNetherlands is doing pretty bad on the how many women andnetwork in depth, and this is actually something that wereally would like to improve so that yeah we have more women intech services and Isabel, it's gonna be a really big company.So because there are.Relatively prime, quite a lot of women insect, but this is reallysomething we can do to make animpact. To show that I pay this something we both won't findreally important, and maybe we can also inspire some people tothink about a career in tech if they haven't done that before.Yeah, I knew there was a women in tech.Community you can you came up with this statement you workedon that together with, uh, our people end Department I believeand and I think it was even thataborts that. Signed the statement right, can you cantell more about the statement? But what did we put on paper?Yes, of course. So when we were first starting, the communitymarching and I we had a very clear idea of what we wanted thecommunity to be like. But we felt that having only our ownopinions was not enough to build a very strong, long lasting,relevant community. So we organize a kick up session lastyear where we invited.Everyone to participate and give their opinions and together withSusanna, here's help. We had a workshop and we gathered a lotHeard from everyone on what they felt the communityshould represent. And while we should stand for, andthat's how we came up with the women in tech statementthat is based on three pillars we have the encouragepillar, the share pillar, and the diversified pillar andthe idea under each of those pillars is that the encouragesession. The encourage pillar is where we.Together as a community, we do some networking. We buildbridges. We try to be authentic, open and vulnerable, but mostimportantly we listen and we have been doing monthly meetingswhere we just have lunch together and we just have a safespace where everyone can can support each other. That hasbeen really successful so far.And then under the share pillar we we're working oninspiration sessions because we do know we have so manyamazing women working inside the company that are reallyworking that their ***** off. Sorry for my language, butthat's true really being very innovative and just beinggame changers and we want to create a platform where thosewomen can just tell their stories so that they alsoinspire other women and everyone actually too.Perform their jobs better by just sharing the their lifestories. They can also just make a very positive impact on thecommunity in general and then we have the diversified pillar.And the idea there is that we embrace the uniqueness of allpeople. So we want to be very aware of biases and we want tobe also very inclusive, which means that this Community is notonly for women, is for everyone. Because we do understand thatthere is no way that will change the status quo if we only havewomen involved. So if you are a man and you're listening to thispodcast and you want to get involved, please reach outbecause we need your help. And I think that by having everyone'sperspective, that's how we can.Actually make a positive impact and create a change on thecompany and on the environment around us. And actually I alsowant to give just a quick shout out to Timon from recruitmentbecause he has been working with us already and then that'sreally positive and we need morepeople like that. Yeah, so they embraced the uniqueness of allpeople and that's that's the diversified pillar one.OK, and then this statement was put on paper and then our boardmember Ellen said, OK, this is that important. I want to signit off an want to be part of it as well, right? It's how kind ofexactly so we're really proud and we think it's really greatthat we have this this kind of support from directors as well.Great, great to see in here. Yeah and then.Yeah, maybe that's a nice bridge. Of course, if youtalk about sharing and inspire other is is dead,then where the if you talk about our spaces Summit?And then we have this this yearly event. This time it wasonline. You should hear the listen to the other episode. Wetalked about it and in this space summit tree women stood upand said I want to present over there and that's the bridge hereand I think. I'myeah, can you share something about your presentation? Anyeah. But why did you choose the topic before we go to women intech relationship again?Wants to start.I can start um, so the presentation I'veparticipated in a few conferences and.They always had Carter involved as a workshop or of as ofa talk, and I thought, oh, that's a great topic to do atball. So can you hear me? I'm not sure I lost it. OK so.Sorry.That's how the idea came up. I participated in a Carterworkshop talk in Tenerife in Socrates Internet, so Ithought I can do it. I have the knowledge why not andthat's how it came in, but I really want to share a firstand foremost that I couldn't have done. It actually didn'tdo it, but the workshop.Was held by Duncan Lou and it wouldn't have been possible if.This amazing colleague for me wasn't there to support me andactually we did it together so I wasn't alone. I'm here topresent it. It was indeed my idea, but I had help and Ithink it's there. It is well with what I said that we are acommunity. We need to help each other to go further.OK, cool.I'm a loose yeah, those are really nice where it's a Nataliayeah for me I presented on stream net which is anapplication framework in Python which makes it really easy tocreate really nice visual demos from scratch in like very shortamount of time. And basically it might seem we do a lot ofproduct discovery which means we do a lot of presentations tostakeholders and to the team itself and streamed. It reallyhelps us a great deal because it allows us to really quickly setup visually appealing andinteractive demos. And so the reason why I wanted to presenton this is basically to share my knowledge on. It's an it's.It's a pretty new tool so not many people knew about it yet,so I really wanted to make sure that everybody in the communityknows about it and can also use it to their advantage.Cool.But it's always nice to hear that that we can shareknowledge, and I think it's agreat opportunity. And that kind of also inspired me formy presentation, because it's not really the stagefright that kept me from presenting. I feel like Iwas struggled to find a topic that I think would berelevant for people and that people would have somethingnew to hear.So this year I thought we actually had the perfectopportunity. So together with my colleague Karen, we present iton our internal infrastructure to called R2D2. You can alsocheck out their podcasts. By the way, Karen and your own from myteam. They talked about the art of data two awhile back on thepodcast and it has actually existed for a few years and wehave quite a new collection in the company so we thought itwould be nice to tell the storyHow did it come to be and what were the decisions madethree years ago? And what would you maybe do differently if youdo did it today?So yeah, that was the motivation behind those threepresentations. I believe we also put them on online on YouTube,so insurance, we will add the links of course, but the debt sofar that the topic thing you can see that it's already 3 totallydifferent topics. So that's interesting. But yeah.What was it that you?Yeah I wanted to present something during spaces submitand especially this subject.For me it was in Italian for me. It was mainly because I Iwas missing the CATA mindset in the bowl.com conferences in ourenvironment. In general I found it a great way for me toopen up and meet people and see different ideas an alsocultivate a lot for me. It helped me cultivate my.Um software engineering practices. I think it made me abetter software engineer, so I wanted to bring it to ball.Some are loose. Yeah, so for me. Like I said it was mainly aboutsharing knowledge, but I also wanted to kind of show off thethings that the cool things that my team is doing which we'reproud of. And also I wanted to really push myself a bit, so I'mnot really usually. I'm not ready to the person who goes tospeak at conferences. In fact it was my first conference talk.And yeah, I kind of wanted to get out of my comfort zone andbe like, yeah, why not? Why why shouldn't I do this? I mean,it's cool and I have somethingto say so. Yeah, let's try.Attitude really wants to do this yourself that it comes from youor did someone push you a little too to take this step.I think it was mainly me. I don't think anybody was reallypushing me, but together with a couple of teammates we were allreally excited about space submit and a couple of mycolleagues also submitted some abstract. So yeah, that alsohelped. So we were in it together, so to speak. Yeah, so,so it really helps if other people in your environment arealso doing it, because that is more easy to to also participateand wanted to be out there onstage, right? Yeah, exactly yeah definitely.Cool.And for under. Ask him what wasyour. Motivation your drive.Yeah, so on one hand we've been receiving a lot of questionsabout R2D2, so we wanted to take this opportunity to answer someof them. And also it's made us a bit more transparent. I find onwhat we're doing to the rest ofthe company. An to a kind of add on Marluxia story. It was a bittoo. I wanted to practice my presentation skills, but mycolleague Karen also wanted to do the same. So this is a reallynice opportunity to do it together and also hold eachother responsible of its two to make it good and to share theload. So I really like that. Yeah, so it's a combination of.Yeah, really present about the the topic, the content, ancombination of the development, personal development. So youwant to make a next step inpresentation, etc. So, um.Yeah, if you're connected with your ex and your experience withthe other questions and if you if you look at the number ofwomen presenting during spaces submit, it's really unknownnumber. Um?Can you explain it based on your experience?Yeah, so maybe I'll start this time. I think from from myselfat least I I always struggle a bit to find a topic as I saidthat I think people would beinterested in. So I think as women we maybe try to be a bitperfectionist and really find the really nice thing andsomething that hasn't been donebefore. And we really try to have a topic that's really goodor in other safe or whatever, But that's that. Doesn't have tobe always the case. I've noticed I've been to many conferenceswhere where you can hear very niche sort of things that maybehave been discussed.And they are not necessarily your topic of interest, butthere are somebody's topic of interest, so you can alwaysfind people that are interested in what you haveto say. And just because you're not good at thatcertain topic doesn't make you good in another topic, soyou should think that probably you have somethinginteresting to say.I think that's my experience.For you and Marloes, yeah, so I also agree I can relate to whatunder Stasya saying. I also think it can be quite dauntingto present at a conference. I mean it's it's one thing topresent for your team, but it's another to present for the wholetech community, right? So and that's not just for women, butthat's also for men. And I think you know there are quite a fewpeople who have done this like many times who are veryconfident in. Presenting we're very comfortable. And thenthere's also a very large group in the tech communitywho have never done that before who don't feel likereally comfortable presenting for a large audience and.So I think we already have a lot of like a big supportsystem in place, but I think making sure that everybodyknows that it's there that there is a lot of support andthat is a very safe community to present in is really,really important, and I think that could be very powerfulthing to do moving forward.For you to tell you it's similar experiences or Ilike I couldn't agree more with an assassin marlous.Really, I felt exactly the same way.One extra thing that I notice is that the reason why in ball, butalso in other companies, I do believe that ball is doing quitea good job. Let's say based on my previous experience, is theway a company presents itself.So I also I have an experience in a conference that someoneasked me. Would you like to talk a bit to us about women in tech?And I was like why? What can we do to increase what they woulddo it? What can we do to get you into our company? And I was likelook for personally for me. And of course this is Nataliaspeaking. It's different per person. If I see that thecompany is presenting itself full of men and predominantlylike how strong they are andhow. Like getting it all out there. I would feel a bit scaredthat not scared that all will go there and what am I gonna do?But mostly like are my idea is gonna be heard. Is there spacean enough security let's say for every different idea to becultivated and I think that's the most important thing and Ithink it that is also diversity is not only about women in techis about different perspectives.And ways of thinking.And because my loose mentioned the feeling safeand also about presenting at a conference like the SpaceSummit Diffie, in your opinions, do a good enoughjob there so that you could feel safer. Or should westill take additional steps to make it even better?Yeah, that's a good question. I think like I said, we have areally nice support system in the tech community. There'sthe walk-in sessions for speakers. You know, there's apresentation course that you can take, so there's already alot of things going on, but of course we don't really know.This is in the case of very few female presents, as we don'treally know why it is that there are so very few femalepresenters, so I think there could still be. You know thereare a lot of questions still unanswered and I think thatwould be my suggestion in figuring out what those answersare. You know, like maybe collecting data through survey,figuring out if people are willing to or women are willingto present next year and why.It is that they will or why they don't want to go an. Youknow, collecting some feedback, asking theimportant questions like you know what is it that we cando to help? What are things that are fair? What areholding you back? And if we have answers to all thosequestions, we can determine what are the next importantsteps and if we're doing a good enough job, I think.What was it already a topic and maybe now looking a bitmore to my tan? He said in the women in tech group?Number of women sharing their stories in space, assuming therewasn't. I'm not sure, but we are preparing a session for the endof this month where we intend to do exactly this survey so.Individually, I have been speaking to a few women so Ihave an idea of what might be. You know the issue there, but wewant to gather more more insideWe intend to do that during one of the lunch sessions. Justhave an anonymous survey so that they can answer and hopefullywill find more concrete thingsto tackle. Yeah, but it was not not some discussionalready up front. For instance, during the requestfor proposals that unfortunately now.That's that's good to realize.So it wasn't inside. You got during their spaces, summitsthat there were really few women in doing this presentation.Um?Yeah, of course if there are in general will be more womenworking in tech then of course you can expect the number we'vebeen presenting in the present in the conference is also belarger so. Yeah, that's of course the currencyproblem, right?Should we do as a company something specific on that siteshould be you've been talking to time and already, but should wedo something in the way we publish our vacancies?That's boots.Easier accessible.Uh, for non white men, let's let's put it like that.I think he has been very busy working on that specifically, sobasically going through all the copy so the very small thingsthe way that you write stuff you have to be very careful not touse like very.Not to put gender as a very big role there. Also one thing thatwe notice while we were on the women's at conference last yearin Amsterdam we had some pamphlets. We had a booth. Wewere there as a company as Balakan and we had a group andwe had some pamphlets to showcase the company and whilewe realize while we were at the conferences that the pamphletonly had pictures of men and we were in a women in techconference. So that was, you know one of the things.We should definitely work on if we want to showcase thediversity that we already have in sideball, then we should bepaying more attention to those small details for sure. Anotherthing that we have been.Working together with recruitment is making sure thatevery time that we have a female engineer on the process on therecruitment process, now we make sure that she she meets with atleast one female engineer as well so that she knows thatthere are also female engineers working at the company and shecan feel more, perhaps more safe or more relaxed during theinterview process to maybe ask questions or just identifyherself a little bit more.If I may add something on that, um, I think from my perspectivewe should also be a bit careful because we don't want tosegregate the whole. The subject of recruitment, so I think wehave to be careful with the pamphlets and with the wording,including diversity, diversity, but not really be targeted as ofwe're trying to improve to increase our seats.Of how many women we have? Becausw yeah, we're trying topromote uh, self more into that area. Becausw. Speaking fromexperience I have heard from a lot of female engineers at Ballevent that they don't want to be identified as of somethingdifferent. They just want to an I. I feel the same as well. Iwant to be part I don't wanna be something separate.So it's more about inclusion, I think.But that's kind of hard if you're.And it's it's needed to to to pay attention to, so that's whywe have this women in tech statement and we have youexplained the three pillars but all the other or the otherhands. You know you want to be one team and it in fact yousaying it shouldn't be necessary? Is that what youmean? It's yes, because then it becomes too much. Yes, becausewe saw it with the international community as well. That it somepoint. People, don't you need everyone to work together, soyou need everyone to identify with that and.I I don't want to feel that I have special treatment and Ithink that people in tech want to feel empowered because of theno let's not be cause someone.Made them a favor. Let's say that that isnot the hardest thing.And how with hiring people, right? Let's the most.The hard thing at the moment, because a lot of companies arethinking about how are we going to make our company morediverse, but you have to put some effort, but nobody wantsto be the first be higher. So how are you gonna make surethat you do? Having heard the first thing but at the sametime that people don't feel like they are different to thehigher and that's really hard I think. And the main thing todo is to make sure that in even the BSS that we're reallyinclusive company and that's everybody feels welcome and.Yeah, definitely. I think the trick there is that we should beaware of the biases on our recruitment process. So there isthis very cool study that Air BNB performed with theirrecruitment process. They removed the names and the genderfrom the the.Thank you from the CVS and then they notice that a lotmore women were going through the pipeline. So just byremoving the gender, they already notice that there wasan implicit bias there that no one was noticing. And that'sthat's the type of thing that we we try to work on as well.Just removing our own biases.Especially from the bonds that we we think we are, we don'thave, but it proves you have to do by doing it like this.But this example amazing if you think about it.Now I just once smoke way question for the topic for aboutspaces. Some it again before we go to the closing runs already.What especially for spaces some it is needed. Then we talkedabout some recruitment examples already. What is for spacesubmit needed to attract more women? What do you think?I think, um, I think it's good to include or to promote a bitmore first time speakers we notice by talking with MartyHeiser that a lot of us were just the first time that wepresent it. So I think the coming years it's good to have abit of a campaign of helping out the first time speakers. Somaybe in the survey we can.Ask everyone OK, what? What are your interests? What would youlike to present for instance? And then we can see from there.But other incidents interest maybe on the women side or onthe men's side than yeah, if you have presented before. If not,think that's how we could be inclusive, but not onlyspecifically promoting an yeahagenda. OK. Yeah, I think so too. I think that's areally nice way to look at it to promote peoplewho would normally not present to to actually goand get up on that stage.Yeah, so for instance you could. Like I said there are manyexperienced speakers out there who would probably love to coachsomeone who's never spoken at a conference before. So in thatway you could also leverage those that knowledge that's inthe organization to help someone make that final order thatneeded Step 2 to present. And yeah, and I think the surveythat's going to be.Sent out by Asia on like women, presenting at SafeSpaces, Summit is also a really good step forward.I cannot agree more and I think having the I took thishere the preparation workshop that we organize usually forpresenters an I must recommend it and I think it would benice if we promote that and with more throughout the yearand not pursue only be for a conference. Come by. That waywe give people a bit more time and a bit more leisure to kindof do it in a less stress way or in less time pressure.I think the water I'm going to do a circle. I think it isreally like important that maybe that's also a key to success.Having more simulation throughout the year, not havingto wait Spaces Summit for the presentations. Wehavetheball.commeetups also. Uh, personally, I haven't really seen how thisprocess goes and how you can reach out. What can. What arethe topics that you could present or other small internalinitiatives? Yeah, other talks as well. That's amazing. Yeahyeah, I mean like speaking like anything else, like writing coldor whatever, or flexing your muscles is a muscle that youneed to get comfortable with so.Taking any opportunity you can, you can find to present.I think it's a very nice practice for anybody.And if you're scared of presenting and I would like tovisual thing, you can also contact your favorite podcasthouse and say, hey, I've got an interesting topic for you andthen that would also could be for our number, so that wouldwould benefit us both so.But getting more serious on this phone which youhave any recommendations for beta and myself?Uh, yeah. Also to work on diversity. Is there something inour approach why we are having the people in our show that wehave in our show?Or do you have any ideas on that?I think just from the fact that you we do that in English andthat means that we are reaching out to the whole of the end. Forme, it's really important. Whatever it's happening inEnglish, I really feel as part of the family. I think that wesaw is amazingly inclusive because even from the beginningthere were diverse people there. I think it's percentage wise is.Kind of help Alpha based on knowledge and experience ingender and cultural background so.I also like that the topics are quite mixed, so they're notstrictly very technical. Sometimes attach a bit on socialtopics to like like the Imposter Syndrome podcast you hadrecently. It's just maybe something you see in tech a lot,but it's a more general topic. I think it's nice to have a bit ofa wacky topic now and then and just be you have a crazy thingyou've been thinking about? Do you think it's worthy?Tell me something really fun, yeah?Alright, now maybe it's going to to go to the closing roundtrip and fall. What do you think? I think it's time forthat. Yeah, so so good you'll share your your your keytakeaway here with the audience please.Well for me, um for me the most important thing wasthat althoughI had an idea and I was really convinced that I would like topresent it this time after all these years football and then Iwas pregnant and from the beginning it was obvious that Iwasn't being able. I wouldn't be able to present it, so I had thegreat help from Duncan Luann. Actually, I think that even if Iwasn't on maternity leave, it would have been.Great from the beginning to share it with someone elseand do it together and I really wouldn't have done itwithout him. It was a collaborative effort and Iwould like to suggest to everyone to try to talk toother people and do it together.OK.Nice yeah I completely agree. I think that's areally nice way to do presentations and talks forI think the key takeaway is that.We all really like Spaces Summit, but there's alwaysthings that are up for improvement and I think it'sreally nice that we are reflecting and that we arebringing it to the table and that we are talking about this.And I think only in that way you can really make make things evenbetter. And yeah, there are a lot of cool things happening, soI'm really looking forward to next year Space Summit to seesee what we come up with.Yeah, for me it would be if you want to present but you don'thave an idea, think about it. I'm pretty sure you can findsomething interesting that doesn't look interesting atfirst view, but many more people would be actually happy to hearabout it. So ask around then you'll see you'll find a nicetopic to talk about.OK.And from their women in tech community drivers Martin Heise,what about you?Yeah, so I would like to see our community playing a moreprominent role in engaging more women towards presenting. So aswe mentioned before, maybe creating a safe space where theycan practice doing those throughout the year. Also, justassessing perhaps the underlying issues that are not very clearright now, so I would like to see the community taking a moreactive role in that manner.Yes, I totally agree with that.And my personal takeaways near me that I have topresent next year.Postponing it so yes.Cool.Yeah so Yep, thanks for your time to share this with with usand with with you all this I I believe it's really good to doan explain what you came up with this statement with the threepillars but encouraged by Sharon diversity, but also about thestories about the space Summittalks an. And I like already. I see kind of redline in and do it together.Lower the the your own barrier to to do so and and start smalland the space time. It's an internal summit, but you canalso use other internal ones before you go out standing, sothat's also great to hear. Really interesting in what comesout of the.The inventory that you want to do the the questionnaire survey.And I'm also interested if somebody is listening that wantsto share thoughts, and if it's internal bullet come, you knowhow to find out workplace, but if it's outside bullet come youcan send email to tacklefootball.com or you cancome to the Twitter account or send it to us. Or maybe to youas well. So share your ideas on this that would be also verynice I believe. So yeah, the food for thought I would wouldsay, but also it's we started off with women in tech, but thenit became diversity in tech.And yeah, it it's there's a lot of stuff to talk about again, soso thank you, yeah.Thank you very much Sir. Thanks for having us.Very much here. Yeah, that was great.

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