Depending on the person using them today, words like 'secular' and 'secularism' tend to be proclamations of triumph or cries of alarm. But for thinkers like Jacques Ellul and Charles Taylor, more measured and contemplative approaches to whatever secularism is and does are required to get a clear understanding of where we have been, where we are, and where we are going socially, culturally, politically, economically, and spiritually speaking. In this conversation, I speak with Andrew Root, an insightful reader of Charles Taylor, as well as Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Karl Barth. So, at one point in our dialogue you’ll hear me say: so, what do you (Andrew) think about Ellul’s treatment of our so-called secular age? On top of a few sidebar conversations about us both supporting losing hockey teams, the mysterious appeal (or lack thereof) of the Canadian coffee giant Tim Hortons, Andrew and I spend a good deal of time laying out the essential features of Taylor’s and Ellul’s understandings of secularism—where they are similar, where they are different, and so on—before he answers that question. Guest BioAndrew Root is the Carrie Olson Baalson Professor of Youth and Family Ministry at Luther Seminary, USA. He writes and researches in areas of theology, ministry, culture and younger generations. His most recent books are Churches and the Crisis of Decline (Baker, 2022), The Congregation in a Secular Age (Baker, 2021), The End of Youth Ministry? (Baker, 2020), The Pastor in a Secular Age: Ministry to People Who No Longer Need God (Baker, 2019), Faith Formation in a Secular Age (Baker, 2017), and Exploding Stars, Dead Dinosaurs, and Zombies: Youth Ministry in the Age of Science (Fortress Press, 2018).Follow Andrew RootPodcast: https://podcasts.apple.com/ca/podcast/when-church-stops-working-featuring-andrew-root/id1462822741Website: https://www.andrewroot.org/Twitter: https://x.com/rootandrewFacebook: https://www.facebook.com/andrew.root/Andrew's latest book: The Church in the Age of Secular Mysticismshttps://bakeracademic.com/p/The-Church-in-an-Age-of-Secular-Mysticisms-Andrew-Root/516472Follow Personalist ManifestosSubstack: https://personalistmanifestos.substack.com/YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@PersonalistManifestosApple Podcasts: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/personalist-manifesto-s-podcast/id1779392257Additional NotesJordan Peterson is the Intellectual We Deserve: https://www.currentaffairs.org/news/2018/03/the-intellectual-we-deserve

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