On this episode of The David Frum Show, The Atlantic’s David Frum urges an end to wishful thinking about Iran, and a focus instead on the regime’s threatening words and murderous actions.

Then David is joined by the Carnegie Endowment scholar Karim Sadjadpour for an urgent conversation about the internal decay of Iran’s theocracy. They discuss the survival instincts of Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, the regime’s obsession with martyrdom and repression, the true cost of the Islamic Republic’s nuclear ambitions, and the disconnect between the revolutionary slogans of the state and the aspirations of Iranian society.

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