In this episode, I sit down with Shaun M. Dougherty, Professor of Education and Policy at Boston College, to talk about how we measure learning and what our systems of assessment often miss. Shaun’s research focuses on education policy, equity, and the impact of accountability systems, and he brings both an analytical and deeply human perspective to the question of what counts as a good education.We explore the evolution of standardized testing, the limits of quantitative measures, and the philosophy behind how societies define success. Shaun shares how his time as a teacher and administrator shaped his approach to research and why purpose and meaning must be at the center of any educational framework. We talk about literacy, curiosity, and the tension between learning for life and learning for advancement, asking how education can balance rigor with relevance.This conversation moves between data science, ethics, and lived experience, connecting policy to purpose and measurement to meaning. It invites us to imagine an education system that values curiosity as much as compliance and measures growth not only by numbers, but by how deeply we connect to what we learn.Chapter:00:00 – Introduction: Who is Shaun M. Dougherty02:00 – From Camp Counselor to Economist to Educator05:00 – The Moment That Sparked His Interest in Education Research08:00 – What Should We Measure in Education and Why11:00 – Why Purpose and Meaning Matter More Than Metrics15:00 – Can Curiosity and Connection Be Measured?19:00 – The Problem of Test Preparation and the Loss of Authentic Learning23:00 – Campbell’s Law: When Over-Measuring Changes What We Measure27:00 – How Policy Shapes Schools and Student Motivation31:00 – Grades, Purpose, and the Philosophy of Educational Signals35:00 – Human Capital vs. Meaning: The Debate Behind Learning’s Purpose39:00 – Inequality and the Uneven Impact of Standardized Testing43:00 – The Role of Career and Technical Education as a Counterbalance46:00 – What the Future of Educational Metrics Could Look Like49:00 – Closing Reflections: Curiosity, Connection, and the Evolving Mind

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