In today's episode, we're joined by Jen Broad and Laura Lobay, who work on the employment team for the charitable organization LiveWorkPlay. Founded in 1995, LiveWorkPlay's mission is to foster an environment where individuals with disabilities and autism can live, work and play as valued citizens. As employment inclusion specialists, Jen and Laura have extensive experience helping employers and managers create more accessible, equitable and supportive work communities. They'll share their insights on the key elements of building an inclusive organizational culture, providing reasonable accommodations, and empowering employees through disability awareness training and allyship.Tune in to learn practical tips and best practices that organizations can adopt to make their workplaces truly inclusive, where everyone can thrive. Whether you're a business leader, HR professional or simply interested in promoting greater inclusion, this episode is sure to provide valuable takeaways.Join us as we explore the transformative power of workplace inclusion with the experts from LiveWorkPlay - Jen Broad and Laura Lobay. Website URL: https://liveworkplay.ca/ LinkedIn Profiles: https://ca.linkedin.com/in/jen-broad-39b4b5b6 https://ca.linkedin.com/in/laura-lobay-2a43531a3 [Script]  How to really take those thoughts, those intentions, and make them more actionable and really see results within their organization. Can you explain to me what's going on? What's your process? Why is this happening? And then maybe there's something going on within the process for that person that then you can adjust and then help make things better.  And, you know, nine times out of 10, you're not going to get an individual who maybe feels comfortable saying that in that situation. And if you do have a candidate that feels comfortable, you as a manager, are you able to then implement that accommodation? Welcome to the show, Jennifer. Sorry, I'll try that again. Welcome to the show, Jennifer and Laura. Hi, thanks for having me. Inclusive Tech, a fictional company with a real problem, is forward-thinking and prides itself on its core value of inclusion. The company has made concerted efforts to create a diverse workforce with a particular focus on hiring team members with disabilities. However, despite their best intentions, Inclusive Tech has encountered challenges in ensuring that all employees, especially those with disabilities, can thrive in the workplace, Joshua, the HR director, noticed an increasing number of concerns being raised by employees with disabilities regarding accessibility and accommodation. They've expressed that while the company's policies are inclusive on paper, the practical implementation often falls short. Some employees feel their specific needs are not fully understood or met, leading to a sense of isolation and hindered performance. Joshua is determined to address these issues, and he's decided to engage the team who's helped him recruit these team members with disabilities. Laura Lobey and Jen Broad work on the employment team for a charitable organization, Live Work Play. Live Work Play was established in 1995. Their mission is to help the community welcome and include individuals with intellectual disabilities and autistic persons to live, work, and play as valued citizens. Laura and Jen are part of the team of inclusion specialists who work with employers in the private sector, everything from small family businesses to major corporations. They help bring job seekers and employers together and support owners and managers to build their own capacity for workplace inclusion.  Welcome to the show.  Thanks for having us. So great to be here. Okay, well, I'd love to just take a very quick minute before we dive into our case study. Now, I would like to ask you guys why you love your jobs. Oh, do you have enough time for that on the podcast? Inclusivity is something that I've always been really passionate about. And I love customer service as well. And so for me, in my role, I get to incorporate those two things on an everyday basis. I also love sort of like problem solving and and helping people sort of feel seen and valued. And so for me, this is just, I find it really fun and engaging and really impactful at the end of the day. Awesome. Laura, how about you? Yeah, sort of very similar to Jen. I just really, I love working with managers. I love working in the community and really helping to build that capacity within the community. As someone who has struggled with employment in the past and having, you know, finding that successful path, I love now being able to work with employers and really help them to build that capacity and build a more inclusive environment and just help everyone to be more successful. That's amazing. And like such valuable work too. So I'm curious, what, what are your first impressions of this case study that we presented? So I think it's pretty typical with a lot of organizations really recognizing that there are some changes or, you know, they've done a really good job thoughts, those intentions, and make them more actionable and really see results within their organization. And so this is not something that you haven't seen before, probably. No, this is definitely a pretty, pretty realistic kind of thing that we would be working with in our everyday, our everyday work for sure. Awesome. And so if this was one of your clients, you know, how would you respond to help them start to identify the root cause of these issues? Yeah, I think step number one is always for businesses and organizations to realize, okay, something needs to happen here, we need to, we need to approach this a bit differently. And I think there's a lot of good intention here. And a lot of companies really focus on trying to find ways to make things more fair in their organization. And for a lot of organizations, and for a long time, fair meant equal. And that's really not the case. So we really need to shift from looking at things from an, you know, from an equal perspective into a more equitable approach and perspective.  And for our listeners, some people may be trying to visualize what that means. So I'll just try and paint a picture in your mind of when I'm when I'm referring equal and equitable, what that actually means. So we use this example a lot in our workplace where let's say you have four different individuals and they've got varying needs, varying abilities. Let's say maybe one is a toddler and one is, you know, varying heights and weights and sizes. And then you have someone who's got some mobility barriers, and you give them all the exact same bicycle, and you say get from point A to point B. And everyone is going to have a lot of challenges with that, because the bike is not suited for the needs. It's an equal platform for everybody. So that's what we mean when we're talking about equal opportunity. But then when we're talking about equitable opportunities or equitable approaches to things, we're taking a look at the individual and what skill sets they have, and then what supports or practices we need to put in place to help them get from point A to point B. So then you hand these individuals bicycles that have been tailor-made to allow them to give you that output or performance. And so when businesses are looking at their practices, their policies, they really need to start to shift to look at things in an equitable lens. And you know what that may look like from a business perspective is, you know, this is a tech company. And so maybe everything is online. But you may realize that while it's a tech company, there may need to be some accommodations put in place for that. So seeing where we can maybe start to put in some, you know, different application processes or hiring processes. The interview category is one that I really love to sort of blow up for people and really have them view it with a different lens. Because we're used to a very traditional interview where, you know, you and I are sitting at a table and there's papers and managers who are hiring are typically frantically writing down answers. And, but maybe that person who's really good in the tech world has really struggles with that, you know, interpersonal communication or even being able to formulate their thoughts on the spot. So, you know, maybe, maybe you can offer different approaches to the interview system. Maybe it's, you know, you're providing the candidate. I can provide you with questions ahead of time. You can choose your platform of interview. It can be, you know, a walk and talk, but, you know, having some, some different approaches for people.  And, you know, the only sort of cautionary tale with that is, you need to make sure that you are providing those opportunities for accommodations before you get to the interview. Because so many times, again, and this is that, you know, it's on paper, but is it in practice when a manager sits down and the first question is, do you require an accommodation for this interview? And, you know, nine times out of 10, you're not going to get an individual who maybe feels comfortable saying that in that situation. And if you do have a candidate that feels comfortable, you as a manager, are you able to then implement that accommodation? And that really shows a lot about the organization and goes along to building the trust. So I think the biggest way to get to the root of the problems is really starting to shift from equal to equitable when you're looking at your practices. Okay. Is that something that employers you work with typically come to you with an understanding of? Or is that something you often have to educate them on?  I think it's something that we often have to sort of go through a bit of an exercise as well, because again, there's just been this real narrative that equal is fair. And so it's really trying to get through that and have people see how a more tailored person-centered approach is really going to help with their practices. That makes a lot of sense. So I'm curious about how would you know if there's a challenge? You know, once you've placed someone in a role, how do you deliver, how do you build a continuous improvement process or support your client in building that like feedback mechanism? So you know if things are working or if things need to be adopted. So I think really just, you know, taking that person-centered approach and really working with the person. One thing I often recommend to managers is having regular check-ins with your employees that aren't about necessarily giving feedback, you know, to the person. Let them give feedback to you, you know, have a dialogue, like just a real dialogue about what's going on in work, what's working for you, how are things going? What's not working? What can we improve on? How can we change or streamline our processes to have this fit better for you and just have like an ongoing conversation with the person? I think that's really a helpful way to sort of approach things and to identify challenges sort of before they happen, even, you know, like if you're having these ongoing conversations and you're just sort of regularly checking in and, you know, how are things going as things come up, you're building trust with the employee. And then the employee is going to be able to be like, hey, you know, maybe this isn't working, but can we do this a little bit differently? And bringing them into the conversation like that so they have a lot of agency and how to do things in their job as well, I think is super important. Okay, cool. For a company like Inclusive Tech, would you recommend something like an accessibility audit? And if yes like what are the best practices around that?  Yeah I think anytime businesses can do a deep dive into that is always going to be beneficial and the important thing to remember is it needs to be a collaborative approach so we have we often reference the saying with not for. So making sure that you are including the employees along the journey with you. Because, you know, within your organization, you may have someone that has already disclosed that there's accommodations that are needed. And you know about that one. And so you're going to be able to really easily pinpoint, you know, where the deficits are there that you'll need to make accommodations for. But you're also going to have individuals where maybe they have episodic disabilities that come up, you know, once a week, once every couple of months that you don't know about. And you're absolutely going to have people who have disabilities who have not disclosed that in the workplace. So inviting a broad range of your employees to participate this and sit around the table because accessibility really looks different for everybody. So having that broad perspective is going to be super important. And then you can start to do a deep dive, you know, into, you know, the very physical surroundings of your work, but then you look at to do a deep dive, you know, into, you know, the very physical surroundings of your work. But then you look at your other platforms, like your website, you know, how accessible is it, your hiring practices, your training practices, your onboarding and orientation. We see a lot of very similar platforms in that. And in that process, you know, it's kind of a one-stop shop, but is that working for everybody? So really looking into that. Another area that organizations don't always think about in this sort of thing is, you know, what do outside of workplace gatherings look like? So are you going out for dinner? Are you doing a team building somewhere? So taking a look at that to making sure that, you know, where you're going as a company are still accessible. So taking a look at that and making sure. And I think approaching with curiosity and excitement around this because it should be a really exciting thing for businesses to sit down and say, I want to create a more inclusive environment. But there can be this, you know, negative connotation of a burden, or I have to do this, where, you know, one, businesses should just want to do it, because it is the right thing to do. But if we're trying to encourage businesses, there's also a strong business case for it, so customers seek out employers where there's representation present, where they really sort of walk the walk. And employees will stay around for longer in organizations and that reduces training costs and turnovers. So there's a huge amount of benefits to sort of doing a deep dive like this with your organization. But how you approach it is really going to tell your employees your stake in it.  So if you approach it with curiosity, excitement, include them in on the journey, then that's when you really start to have inclusivity be woven into the fabric of your culture and your organization, as opposed to, you know, I'm ticking a box, I'm doing an accessibility audit, because it's what I'm supposed to be doing. But when you start to really integrate that, and how you approach it is when you start to really see the long lasting changes within your organization. I'm just thinking, like, as you were talking, it came to mind that like, you know, there's lots of folks who are either leaders or owners of small businesses who are listening to this podcast.  And, you know, I, when I think accessibility audit, and some of the things that you mentioned, I'm thinking like, to Ching, you know, like, this is going to be expensive. How, you know, how can we make this as financially accessible as possible for people to start the process and continue the process? Yeah, I absolutely see how that could be a bit daunting. As a sort of statistic, an accommodation within the workplace, ballpark around $500. And that's sort of across the board. But you know, taking time to talk to your individuals and doesn't cost anything. And a lot of these changes could just be attitudinal changes to the workplace. They could be shifting work schedules. They could be changing a light bulb to make it a little more sort of like dimmer and not as bright or impacts, you know, headaches. So a lot of these things can be super small changes that are really going to make a big impact. And again, it's, you know, you're not going to be able to make all these changes overnight. So recognizing that, recognizing that mistakes are going to happen along the way, and that's part of the journey and part of the learning process. But I think if your employees see that there's a commitment to these changes, they can help facilitate these as well. So there may be ones that cost more. Absolutely. That is part of the equation. But a lot of these things can be sort of attitudinal approaches to accommodations in the workplace. Awesome. So I guess for the folks out there, you do not have to hire a consultant. You can just ask questions. Are there any specific questions that you could recommend, you know, like as a starting point?  I think having people sort of, you know, what would your ideal workplace look like? What would your ideal training platform look like? If you could change, you know, one thing about your office or your setup, what would it be? They don't have to be super groundbreaking questions. And I think Laura touched on this a lot of, a lot of it is the trust building with your employee, encouraging them because it's not up to you necessarily to come up with all of these ideas. And that's the other thing, if you have employee engagement, come up with all of these ideas. And that's the other thing, if you have employee engagement, we always try and make sure that the individuals that they work with are their own best advocate of the accommodations that they need. And so utilizing their skill set along the process can really help. But those really just kind of prodding questions about what would make your workplace overall better. Even like, has there ever been a situation that, you know, has really been uncomfortable for you or has really been a struggle or a challenge in your workplace? All those conversations can really lead to some great discussions around accessibility. Right. So I feel like a lot of employers, performance management is always a tough topic for employers. Everyone hates it already, you know, let alone when you're, you're, you know, as the business owner, you do need a level of performance from your team and you want to be sensitive, right? Especially to people who have certain types of disabilities. What are your recommendations around that? So I think really taking a collaborative approach with your employees, if you're doing these regular check-ins, like we mentioned earlier, building that trust and really having an ongoing conversation, then when things come up or you need to address issues with performance management, then it makes it a little bit easier, because you've built that relationship. And you've sort of built that trust with the person.  I think, yeah, just keeping it as an ongoing conversation, asking questions with people and approaching things with curiosity as well, like Jen said earlier, you know, what you were seeing this happen, can you explain to me what's going on? What's your process? Why is this happening? And then maybe there's something going on within the process for that person that then you can adjust and then help make things better. But everyone has sort of, you know, different ways to get places, you know, we have different routes, but we all have different output capacities as well. So you just sort of looking at that, really approaching things with curiosity and with an open mindset and building that trust with your employee, I think is really important. But also at the end of the day, everyone is accountable for what their goals are as well. So holding that accountability is also really important. But I think it's the thing is, is how do you get there and how can you adjust how you get there and then still holding someone accountable for the end result is really what the key is here that you thought was like the linchpin or the most, you know, important behavior to remember to demonstrate in the workplace for this specific topic? What would that be? I'm curious. I think really, it's about approaching things with curiosity. You know, like we all come into a situation where we're like, oh, we're seeing this happen with this employee. And you know, this is awful. And we have sort of like a direction we're trying to go and I think just trying to to let that go and really being curious about what's happening can be challenging at times absolutely to sort of have that mindset but really approaching a situation with you know curiosity why is this happening this way what can I learn from it as a manager as well to help support my employee I think that's probably me, that's probably the advice I give the most is, you know, let's ask some questions. Let's be curious about this situation and see what we can learn and how we can make it better. I love that, like not making assumptions, basically.  Absolutely, yeah. What about you, Jen? Is it a different response?  I don't know that. No, it's the curiosity piece is huge for me. And it being sort of a collaborative approach as well is huge. And just, yeah, just knowing that everyone is usually doing the best with with where they're at at and just having some empathy and compassion around it and trying to figure out, you know, how can we get them to where we want to be?  I think the biggest thing that we're all learning in life is that it ebbs and flows and sometimes everything's fine and we don't need that additional support or or um you know guidance and and then something happens and we get a bit derailed and and we do need that so um really seeing the person as a as a as an individual and and and like laura said approaching with curiosity so you can you can find out and see how you can best support. Fantastic. One last question. So if someone, you know, like Inclusive Tech was looking to develop a more inclusive workplace, and they really wanted to have representation and make sure they had a strong pipeline of folks that had disabilities and encourage them and grow them, what are the types of resources that you would recommend to make sure that you're supporting the career advancement and professional development of, you know, their team members? Yeah, I think, I mean, there's not a one-size-fits-all for this, and it's very, it's going to be very sort of person centered in terms of like the resources that you're, that you're bringing aboard. But I think making sure that, again, that focus on equitable approaches to things you can, it's great to have sort of categories like a mentorship program, absolutely. And, you know, maybe facilitated groups where people can drop in for some more complex, you know, issues within the work like HR or tech, for example. You know, having those spots where people can go and facilitate can be really helpful. But I also think, you know, outsourcing in your community as well. So there's a lot of great employment support programs out there that can help you navigate these changes. A lot of them are government funded as well. So it's no charge. And so if you're looking to help sort of navigate your path and figure out ways to really create an inclusive environment and to bring your team into the fold.  There's lots of great resources out there. And, you know, just really embracing the notion of, you know, what an amazing workplace it could be if we actually got rid of the word accommodation. And we just sort of approach the workspace as like, you know, how do I, how do I set my employees up for success? And what do they need to be successful? And that's not disability specific. And inclusion is not disability specific. So I think, you know, really making sure that if you're targeting inclusivity, it's going to happen organically and authentically. You're not going to need to sort of, that's where you really get away from the boxes being checked or having it really be on paper, but really making a concerted effort of, you know, what can I do to set my team up for success? And how can I create an environment that will really enable them to do that? Oh, I love that so much. Making it the rule, not the exception. Exactly. Yeah, for sure. I completely agree with that. Any final thoughts? Actually, I have a final thought. How in the world do people get a hold of you guys so they can be supported through this process from, you know, from the recruitment phase all the way through?  Oh, well, you can find us online at liveworkplay.ca. People are also welcome to reach out directly to Jen or I. Our contact information is all on that website. Our services are government funded. So, you know, there's no cost to employers or employees seeking support from us. And we're happy to help out. I mean, we also do offer an inclusion workshop through our organization for employers to help them build their capacity in terms of inclusion, which we love facilitating those. They're really great.  Yeah, I think, yeah, search us up online and find us. We're always excited to connect with more people in the community. I think too, if there are organizations out there that are interested in finding out a little bit more, or just like leaning into that space a little bit, we also can organize some employment networking opportunities. So these are opportunities where we facilitate a conversation between a job seeker and an employer. There's no sort of like pressure that there's a job coming out of this. It's just a way for employees and employers to sort of have a conversation about like, what's it like to work here. You know, what are the hours like? What's the culture like? And giving because sometimes it can be challenging for people to, you know, oh, I think I want to do this. But you know, what does that job actually entail? We find out all the time that jobs are so much different than what is sort of said on a job description. So having them have the ability to go into that environment, ask the manager questions, see the sights, the smells, the sounds, all of that can have a huge impact on their employment journey. So that's another really great way for managers to sort of get connected with us with like no pressure to hire, just some great, you know, community connecting and building going on yeah that's actually a problem almost everywhere it's it's tough to really understand what skills you need for a particular job for whatever reason like what that job actually looks like um I hear that all the time as well so um oh well it has been an absolute pleasure chatting with you both. Thank you so much for having us. Yeah. And hopefully we'll maybe partner together in the future. Yeah, that would be so great. Awesome. Don't forget to stay weird, stay wonderful wonderful and don't stay out of trouble

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